Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: HP Terminator Stealth, Lean Spikes & Loss of Ignition Timing Sync

  1. #1

    Default HP Terminator Stealth, Lean Spikes & Loss of Ignition Timing Sync

    I'd like some help with my system tune. It's an HP/Terminator Stealth with HyperSpark Ignition, Holley/Bosch WBO2 sensor.
    Drivetrain Info:
    331 SBF
    10:1 compression
    Cam 215°/220° Duration @ .050", .533"/.544" Lift, 114° Lobe Separation
    AOD with Lentech Street valve body and C6 convertor/non-lockup stock stall speed (1600?)
    3:73 Rear Gear
    27" Rear Tire Diameter

    I have attached a zip file with my GCF and a datalog from this morning.
    Two issues that I see, there may be more so please speak up.

    First Issue: There are lean spikes that show up while I'm basically just cruising along. Looking at the BASE FUEL tab, two of the examples in the datalog occur from about 75-90 seconds and another from 100-112 seconds. There are others as well.

    Second Issue: The ignition timing losing sync with the base timing. There's a consistent delta of 8° and varying duration. I can't figure out why it occurs since the ignition timing and base timing track perfect until there is this loss of sync. The MISCELLANEOUS tab shows this at multiple times and some examples are at 29-42 seconds, 57 seconds, and 115-122 seconds.

    The attached image below shows the base timing at 26.6° and the ignition timing at 18.6°. I had the data points on to verify I was not losing signal (data).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Timing Offset 8 Degrees 01 - 21095012 Datalog.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	51.4 KB 
ID:	14310 21 MAY REV 01 - Base Timing at 20, Smooth Timing Table.zip
    Last edited by Space Cowboy; 05-21-2022 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Need to add zip file

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    31,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Space Cowboy View Post
    First Issue: There are lean spikes that show up while I'm basically just cruising along. Looking at the BASE FUEL tab, two of the examples in the datalog occur from about 75-90 seconds and another from 100-112 seconds. There are others as well.
    Overlay the datalog onto your Global File, and pay special attention to the center paragraph in blue print:
    Originally Posted by Danny Cabral
    Quick Datalogger Information:
    Always provide data, not just symptoms. Is the AFR & ignition timing optimized? Overlay the datalog onto your Global File.
    Ensure the Target A/F Ratio table is properly programmed for your engine. Ensure the ECU is "Learning" (Learn Table LINK).
    Scroll through the datalog to the problem area. Then look exactly where this happens on the Base Fuel & Timing Tables. Scrutinize:
    RPM, MAP, MAT, TPS, CTS, IAC, Target AFR, AFR Left, CL Comp, Ignition Timing, Duty Cycle, Fuel Flow, Fuel Pressure & Battery. When the engine is tuned & running well, you should decrease the Closed Loop & Learned Compensation Limits % to lock in a good tune.

    Using the Holley EFI software (LINK), look at where the live cursor moves to during this occurrence, and
    manually tune that area of the Base Fuel Table (enrich or lean) & Base Timing Table (optimize ignition timing).


    I find the most helpful datalog function, is overlaying the datalog on your Global File.
    I'm in the habit of using the datalog Overlay feature every time I review a datalog.
    Click on "Datalog" (on the top Toolbar), "Activate Overlay", then "Open Data Log".
    You can literally "playback" a recorded event, and watch it as it happened on any screen.
    Minimize (shrink) the datalog window, and move it to the bottom of any Global File screen.
    Then click & scroll anywhere on the datalog, and watch it playback on your Global File (EFI software).
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...9r10543rev.pdf (Holley EFI Datalogger Instructions)
    https://forums.holley.com/showthread...s-amp-Datalogs (Datalog & System Log Information - Read "NOTES")
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqHO...C6FEA0BB99AF17 (How To Record & Email A Datalog)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7OZUXLRS1Q (How To Record A System Log & Diagnose A No-Start Condition)
    https://forums.holley.com/showthread...7531#post77531 (Closed Loop Datalog Tuning - Posts #2, #4 & #6)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....2523#post62523 (Read 4th & 5th Paragraphs - Smooth Fuel Graph After Transfer Learning)
    Second Issue: The ignition timing losing sync with the base timing. There's a consistent delta of 8° and varying duration. I can't figure out why it occurs since the ignition timing and base timing track perfect until there is this loss of sync. The MISCELLANEOUS tab shows this at multiple times and some examples are at 29-42 seconds, 57 seconds, and 115-122 seconds.
    That's probably the Idle Spark control during the idle Ramp Down parameters (Idle ICF - EFI software). The Idle Spark control varies the ignition timing to help stabilize the idle RPM. It can be temporarily disabled (Idle ICF) when viewing the idle timing with a timing light.
    Originally Posted by Danny Cabral
    EFI Software Help Information/Instructions:
    ‒ On the top Toolbar, click "Help" & "Contents". This opens all Help topics.
    ‒ When navigating the software, click "Help ?", drag it to any parameter and click again.
    ..This automatically opens the definitions for that specific parameter.
    ‒ Tuning information can be read by clicking the F1 key, when you're viewing any screen.
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_199r10544.pdf (Holley EFI Help/Instructions Overview)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...r10546rev1.pdf (Holley EFI Quick Start Guide)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual & Diagrams)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This! (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)
    Open the Holley EFI software "Help" Contents ("Help" drop down menu), and read "Step-By-Step Beginners Tuning".
    Ensure the EFI software is set to run as an "Administrator" (right click for Properties/Advanced). Set it and forget it.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, forged steel crank & rods, forged pistons, Trick Flow T/W 11R 205 CNC comp ported heads, 12:1 comp ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI comp ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal dual 12" fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust, off-road X-pipe, shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3000 RPM C6 converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  3. #3

    Default

    Thank you Danny. I'm new at this and learning how everything plays together. Following your advice and looking at the Base Fuel and the Learn Table, I'm confused why the Learn Table is showing a negative value during the lean condition shown in the datalog. Doesn't a negative value in the Learn Table signify the ECU is reducing the fuel rate at that point in the Base Fuel Table?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    31,060

    Default

    Yes, a negative value means the Learn Table is subtracting that percentage of fuel to achieve your Target Air/Fuel Ratio.
    Read post #14 for more info: http://forums.holley.com/showthread....7370#post47370 (Closed Loop & Learn Table - Especially posts #2, #6 & #11.)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, forged steel crank & rods, forged pistons, Trick Flow T/W 11R 205 CNC comp ported heads, 12:1 comp ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI comp ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal dual 12" fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust, off-road X-pipe, shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3000 RPM C6 converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  5. #5

    Default

    Okay, I think that I'm beginning to understand. Used your suggestion to place the datalog file below the fuel table to see the playback. I've attached a couple screenshots. The Cruise Learn Table and the Cruise Base Fuel Table, both showing the same cells where my engine runs during cruise. The Cruise Learn Table is showing between -1.0 and -7.2, give or take, within the blue circle. Knowing this I should go to those same cells in the Base Fuel Table and reduce them by -1.0% to -7.2%, smooth that area and then retest? Is that the correct approach?

    Looking at the Idle Base Timing Table, I should flatten the cells around the big green blob to help smooth the idle timing? Really appreciate your help.
    Attachment 14314
    Attachment 14315
    Attachment 14316

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    31,060

    Default

    Transfer Learning To Base, then blend the Fuel Graph smooth. Yes, flatten the idle area.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, forged steel crank & rods, forged pistons, Trick Flow T/W 11R 205 CNC comp ported heads, 12:1 comp ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI comp ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal dual 12" fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust, off-road X-pipe, shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3000 RPM C6 converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  7. #7

    Default

    Will do. You’re correct about the ignition timing drop being related to the Ramp Down Parameters. The attached screenshot shows the IAC in turquoise blue in the lower portion of the image ramping down from 30 to zero in four seconds. Once at zero, the ignition timing retards 8° as seen in the pink vertical line in the upper portion of the image.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ignition Timing Drop with IAC Ramp Down.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	83.2 KB 
ID:	14318

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    31,060

    Default

    Yes, it's the Idle Spark control during the idle Ramp Down parameters (Idle ICF - EFI software). The Idle Spark control varies the ignition timing to help stabilize the idle RPM. It can be temporarily disabled (Idle ICF) when viewing the idle timing with a timing light.

    Originally Posted by Danny Cabral
    EFI Software Help Information/Instructions:
    ‒ On the top Toolbar, click "Help" & "Contents". This opens all Help topics.
    ‒ When navigating the software, click "Help ?", drag it to any parameter and click again.
    ..This automatically opens the definitions for that specific parameter.
    ‒ Tuning information can be read by clicking the F1 key, when you're viewing any screen.
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_199r10544.pdf (Holley EFI Help/Instructions Overview)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...r10546rev1.pdf (Holley EFI Quick Start Guide)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual & Diagrams)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This! (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)
    Open the Holley EFI software "Help" Contents ("Help" drop down menu), and read "Step-By-Step Beginners Tuning".
    Ensure the EFI software is set to run as an "Administrator" (right click for Properties/Advanced). Set it and forget it.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, forged steel crank & rods, forged pistons, Trick Flow T/W 11R 205 CNC comp ported heads, 12:1 comp ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI comp ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal dual 12" fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust, off-road X-pipe, shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3000 RPM C6 converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Holley has been the undisputed leader in fuel systems for over 100 years. Holley carburetors have powered every NASCAR® Sprint® Cup team and nearly every NHRA® Pro–Stock champion for four decades. Now, Holley EFI is dominating the performance world as well as our products for GM's LS engine. Holley's products also include performance fuel pumps, intake manifolds & engine dress–up products for street performance, race and marine applications. As a single solution, or partnered with products from other Holley companies - Hooker Headers, Flowtech Headers, NOS Nitrous, Weiand, Earl's Performance Plumbing, or Diablosport - Holley products can give you the edge you need over the competition.
Join us