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Thread: Extremely Rich - Won't Idle

  1. #1

    Default Extremely Rich - Won't Idle

    I did my first start of my 2009 6.0L LY6 controlled by Terminator X. It's a stock long block, stock intake, injectors, coil packs & DBW. The only upgrade is a Trick Flow #30602003 Track Max cam (.585" lift intake & exhaust, a 228°/230° duration split & 112° LSA), springs, VVT delete & long tube headers. The engine started almost immediately and was idling great. All vitals were good. I blipped the throttle after several minutes of perfect idle and it died. It struggled to restart. A small amount of throttle (opening the throttle blade) started it, but idle was rough and wanted to die. Holding the throttle open kept it running by gray smoke dumped out the tail pipes heavy with the smell of carbon monoxide (gasoline), BUT the Terminator X handheld read very lean conditions in the 17:1 to 25:1 range. (The WBO2 sensor is on the left bank header, none on the right). I pulled the plugs. The left bank (#1, #3, #5, #8) spark plugs are wet with gasoline. The right bank (#2, #4, #6, #8) spark plugs are dry black. What caused the change and what's happening?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
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    28,472

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    Ensure there are no exhaust leaks upstream of the WBO2 sensor.

    Exhaust leak upstream of the WBO2 sensor, Base Fuel Table (VE% Table) issue, Base Timing Table issue, ignition misfires/RPM signal problems, Target Air/Fuel Ratio table, fuel pressure issue, etc?
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, R134a A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  3. #3

    Default

    Thank you for the quick reply Danny. Update: No exhaust leaks upstream of the WBO2. I'm an idiot, loose ground for the left bank coil packs on the cylinder head. With that corrected, it starts only with light throttle opening. Runs decent with light throttle (1600 RPM or higher). AFR ratio 14:1. Base Fuel/Timing are Holley default settings. RPM signal is good on the handheld and Auto Meter tachometer. Fuel pressure is 58 psi manually regulated. Let off the throttle to idle, immediate stall. I've run a datalog, but I can't open them in Terminator X PC software, as I get a message, "File appears to be a version the software doesn't recognize." I've downloaded the latest updates for the ECU and handheld per Holley tech videos.
    Last edited by jmecmore; 05-10-2021 at 04:04 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmecmore View Post
    I'm an idiot, loose ground for the left bank coil packs on the cylinder head.
    Darn, I almost included that when you mentioned the different bank-to-bank spark plug appearances.

    With that corrected, it starts only with light throttle opening. Runs decent with light throttle (1600 RPM or higher).
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Step #3)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, R134a A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  5. #5

    Default

    One last question Danny. Considering DBW, do you think I need more than 5% throttle at 0% pedal (Holley default setting). I tried 10% throttle at 0% pedal and got down to about 1000 RPM before stall. Am I getting closer?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Connecticut
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    It's usually more than 5% (15-22%). The idle percentage (up to 22%) is normal for a Drive-By-Wire application (no IAC motor, so it needs a mechanically parked throttle blade position for starting).
    https://forums.holley.com/showthread...4264#post84264 (Related Forum Post - Drive-By-Wire)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, R134a A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  7. #7

    Default Idle achieved - stalls after revved or in gear.

    After adjusting the DBW Pedal vs Throttle to 0% pedal/20% throttle and setting the idle at 950 RPM, it seems I have achieved a nice idle. 14:1 AFR and all vital are good.
    Issues:
    • Starting still requires some throttle manipulation
    • Once started I have to ease down from 1500 or 2000 RPM to my idle speed of 950 RPM otherwise it stalls from the quick RPM fall.
    • Engine stalls from falling revs. Anytime I rev the engine, which it does nicely, as it quickly falls in revs back down towards idle it does not recover at at set idle, but rather falls past set idle and stalls.
    • Stalls when you go into gear. I can manipulate the throttle and get into gear and even drive it off idle. 4L80E with 2500-2700 stall converter.

    I greatly appreciate the help on this forum. I'm a long time enthusiast with lots of mechanical experience, but EFI is new to me, so THANK YOU!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
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    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....e-Tuning-Notes (EFI Idle Tuning Notes)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, R134a A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  9. #9

    Default

    @jmecmore: Never have I had to use 20% (this is the maximum for the first two cells) in the DBW table for the first cell, even on big LSx strokers. I did have a customer once that was having hard start issues, and he left masking tape on the heads when he put his intake on. I'm not saying this is your problem, but you definitely have something going on. Andrew

  10. #10

    Default

    After reading Danny's suggested links on Initial Checks & Idle Tuning, I've adjusted Base Fuel Table on the reading and I've adjusted IAC Position % based on the reading. I still need throttle to start.

    I've now lost idle without holding the throttle to the desired RPM. That just confuses me. If I've set an idle speed and I can see that setting on the handheld, why doesn't system even try to maintain the idle? Especially at lower coolant temps where I've specified 1400 RPM. I can hold it there with throttle. If I release the pedal it just falls in RPM to a stall.
    Last edited by jmecmore; 05-11-2021 at 05:07 PM.

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