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Thread: Tuning Question

  1. #1

    Default Tuning Question

    (1) Am I correct? Everything is based off the Target AFR with Learning & Closed Loop Compensation enabled? The ECU tries to meet the specs in the Target AFR?

    (2) If you Transfer Learning To Base, or change the base tuning, and do not change the Target AFR, the performance will be the same unless you've turned off Learning & Closed Loop Compensation?

    (3) If you turn off Learning and Closed Loop Compensation, then you're stuck with the Base Fuel Table. It is what it is and even the Target AFRs are not useful?
    Thank you in advance.

  2. #2

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    1. Yes. Yes.

    2. I don't understand. Transferring Learning To Base makes the base VE% Table more accurate as to the fueling requirements as commanded by the Target AFR table.

    3. If you disable Learn, it will not populate the Learn Table. If you disable Closed Loop, then the engine runs on the base VE% Table and other modifiers, such as MAT. Andrew

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    See section #2 of this post #11: https://forums.holley.com/showthread...8673#post48673 (Related Forum Post)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  4. #4

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    Andrew, I didn't explain #2 very well. But you guys gave me the information I needed. It explains why you MUST get your Target A/F Ratios correct before much else.

    Thank you Danny, perfect explanation!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonTide View Post
    It explains why you MUST get your Target A/F Ratios correct before much else.
    Yes, and AFR targets are different based on the engine type and the style of injection. For instance, a Chevy BB with a Sniper and a big cam is going to want to run richer, while a LS with a stock cam and stock manifold, etc., can be leaned out. I run my Cougar with the majority of the Target AFR at 14.7 and only enrich it up in the higher load rows. Andrew
    P.S. I used to live in Tuscaloosa....Roll Tide.
    IG @projectgattago
    I offer remote Holley EFI tuning.
    I deliver what EFI promises.
    Please get in touch if I can be of service.

  6. #6

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    I hate to beat a dead horse, but let me try this one more time. Your information is excellent, but sometimes you have to hit me in the mouth to make sure I get it! LOL

    If you have Learning and Closed Loop Compensation enabled, you can change the Base Fuel Table, Transfer Learning To Base, Smooth, etc., and the car will NOT change performance other than maybe making the transitions from cell to cell more fluid BECAUSE the Target Air/Fuel Ratios have not changed! Learning & Closed Loop compensation will still keep the engine running at the same Air/Fuel Ratios. Things may not Learn or compensate as much, which is probably what you're after. If a person isn't happy with the performance, he would probably need to change his Target Air/Fuel Ratios in the area that needs work in order to change performance. I hope this makes sense.

    And yes, Andrew...ROLL TIDE!!! I sure hope we have football this year. Those Big 10 weenies may screw it up for everyone.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Another one of my short quotes: "The WBO2 sensor is what's smarter, the Target A/F Ratio Table is what's determined, the Base Fuel Table is what's tuned, and the Learn Table is what's proficient."
    https://forums.holley.com/showthread...621#post108621 (Related Forum Thread)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Another one of my short quotes: "The WBO2 sensor is what's smarter, the Target A/F Ratio Table is what's determined, the Base Fuel Table is what's tuned, and the Learn Table is what's proficient."
    https://forums.holley.com/showthread...621#post108621 (Related Forum Thread)
    That's an excellent quote, Danny!

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonTide View Post
    I hate to beat a dead horse, but let me try this one more time. Your information is excellent, but sometimes you have to hit me in the mouth to make sure I get it! LOL
    If you have Learning and Closed Loop Compensation enabled, you can change the Base Fuel Table, Transfer Learning To Base, Smooth, etc., and the car will NOT change performance other than maybe making the transitions from cell to cell more fluid BECAUSE the Target Air/Fuel Ratios have not changed! Learning & Closed Loop compensation will still keep the engine running at the same Air/Fuel Ratios. Things may not Learn or compensate as much, which is probably what you're after. If a person isn't happy with the performance, he would probably need to change his Target Air/Fuel Ratios in the area that needs work in order to change performance. I hope this makes sense.
    I might need to be hit in the head a few times myself, so I'll try to put things in my own words...LOL.

    The end goal of tuning is to create a VE% Table that's right for your particular engine combination. In other words, in the event that you need to run Open Loop, that's without the aid of the wideband, your car will drive well.

    The Learn Table helps us to get to that perfect VE% Table, based on the AFR values that we have imputed into the Target AFR table. Once the VE% Table is tuned well, the Learn Table should have values in it that are small in magnitude. I shoot for less than 5%.

    Should you then decide that you want to run a different AFR in a certain area of the Target AFR table, the ECU will automatically adjust the fuel flow, and no further changes are needed to the VE table. What kind of car and engine are you working with? Andrew

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
    Should you then decide that you want to run a different AFR in a certain area of the Target AFR table, the ECU will automatically adjust the fuel flow, and no further changes are needed to the VE table. What kind of car and engine are you working with?Andrew
    But only if you have Learning and Closed Loop enabled, right? If they're shut off, or limited, the ECU will not be able to add or subtract the fuel needed to reach the desired AFR because the VE% Table will not be correct for the new A/F Ratio. Unless you happen to get lucky and have it where it needs to be.

    I'm working on a 347 in a '68 Torino. AFR heads, healthy cam, RPM Air-Gap, 4R70W, etc. It actually runs pretty good! It idles GREAT now thanks to some advice from Danny. The only thing that bugs me is I don't like the way it starts warm. Cold is no issue at all. But I'll get it worked out. Every change seems to get it closer.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonTide View Post
    But only if you have Learning and Closed Loop enabled, right? If they're shut off, or limited, the ECU will not be able to add or subtract the fuel needed to reach the desired AFR because the VE% Table will not be correct for the new A/F Ratio. Unless you happen to get lucky and have it where it needs to be.
    That is correct. Hot start startup tuning is relatively straight forward. Get in touch with me if I can be of service. Andrew

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