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Thread: Tuning Question

  1. #11

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    Danny, it's a really good question. I did not set the system up. I understand how to make the change. Not what I was asking. Rather, I'm trying to understand what OTHER settings I'll have to change that may be affected by making the change to the correct part number and therefore the correct Fuel Injector settings.

  2. #12

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    I've had more time to look into these issues. To start with, here's my configuration:
    Holley Terminator EFI
    Holley Dual Sync Distributor
    MSD 6-Digital/MSD-Blaster 2 coil
    Ford Small Block (331 ci) hydraulic cam
    Manual Transmission

    I had the system installed by a well-regarded shop. They did make an error initially and had selected the wrong Holley part number in the basic configuration of the system. They re-tuned the system with the correct part number/configuration. The Base Fuel Table was tuned on a chassis dyno. However…

    I’ve encountered an issue that I'm not fully comprehending. The Learn Table had become ‘over-tuned’. The ECU kept adding fuel through the Learn function to a seemingly extreme end. Driveability was getting worse rather than better. Correction was fixing the over rich condition on the fly so it wasn’t undriveable, but not ideal.

    I cleared the Learn Table, turned off Learn and Closed Loop correction. The Target AFR is being achieved at any given cell in the fuel map as far as I'm able to tell while driving. But any increase in TPS % causes a lean condition (+/- 20 AFR) until the engine reaches an equilibrium in MAP and RPM at which point it settles back to the Target AFR.

    With Learn off and CL correction on, increases in TPS % cause a brief lien condition followed by an overly rich condition (stumble, etc.) followed by achieving Target AFR as long as throttle inputs are

    So, here are the clues: Learn function is ‘over learning’; Closed Loop correction is 'over correcting’. Given those two pieces of information I believe that:
    Something is configured wrong; some piece of hardware is not working properly.

    Question: Even if the Base Fuel Table was off, the Learn function should dial it in, right?
    Question: If the Acceleration Enrichment was way off, could that cause the over-Learning/correcting?

    I have attached the tune file here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qp48yekmzw...o-CL.hefi?dl=0

    Any insights as to how to diagnose this problem would be appreciated. Here's the Learn Table until I turned it off. This represented probably 300 miles +/- of driving in various conditions.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    60

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    Here's a comparison of system setting, and the Learn Gain option. I think due to the system type, and the rated injector psi being too low, may be causing your over-compensation. But if you wanted to, you could lower the 'Base Fuel Learn Gain' to like 50%. After you feel comfortable you've driven enough scenarios/conditions, and have Transferred Learning To Base, you could lower it even more, say like even 10%. After monitoring the amount of Learn Compensation, and it appears to be stabilized, you could even turn Learn off all together. This too is a Terminator system.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    HWYSTR455 on Performance Years Forums
    1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
    1971 Trans Am 535ci Sniper XFlow Pro-Tour car (next on list).
    1972 442 W-30 Tribute build thread: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...e-project.html

  4. #14

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    From, my prior post, my tuner reconfigured my system with the correct Thtrottle Body model number. And to reiterate, at a given, stable TPS% and a stable RPM & MAP, Target AFR is achieved. Increases to TPS% causes an initial lean condition until TPS, RPM & MAP are stable again. Here are my settings relating to configuration, Closed Loop, Learn, AE vs TPS & AE vs MAP:





  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    60

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    Here's an example, which is working well for me with 3:42 gears and a 3200 stall:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    For reference, the cam is a HYD roller, 222°/230°, .542"/.563", 112° LSA.
    HWYSTR455 on Performance Years Forums
    1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
    1971 Trans Am 535ci Sniper XFlow Pro-Tour car (next on list).
    1972 442 W-30 Tribute build thread: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...e-project.html

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    25,660

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    The Learn Table (Fuel ICF) should be populating the table with numbers. Check your Closed Loop/Learn Parameters. "Enable Closed Loop" and "Base Fuel Learn Enabled" are the only two parameters that need to be check marked.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Manassas, VA
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Ah, good catch Danny! I didn't bother to look at that. Yes, Base Fuel Learn is unchecked.
    HWYSTR455 on Performance Years Forums
    1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
    1971 Trans Am 535ci Sniper XFlow Pro-Tour car (next on list).
    1972 442 W-30 Tribute build thread: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...e-project.html

  8. #18

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    So I'm trying to correct a similar issue with the initial lean spike on hard tip-in, then over compensation, then rich condition, then the AFR evens out. The result is just the hint of a feel of a hesitation from the lean spike then the engine revs fantastic. My setup is a 550-405 Terminator TBI with a HP ECU, GMsmall cap HEI controlled by ECU, single-plane intake, Fast Burn heads, and a custom roller cam in a fresh forged 383 short block.



    I've been getting it better and better by manually adding fuel in the Base Fuel Table just prior to the area where this lean condition starts and it has been working so far. Now I'm going to start lowering the Compensation Limits next to see how it does. I do have the progressive linkage box checked though. Checking it really helped sort out a touchy throttle feel from 0 to 1% TPS. Just wanted to let Gump know he's not alone in this quest, keep up the good work.

  9. #19

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    Interested to see what ideas/concepts are developed through this exchange. I too could benefit from the resolution to this issue.

  10. #20

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    It seems I'm not alone on this. SSLance, could your run the same datalog, but with Closed Loop & Learn set to OFF? It would be very interesting to see.

    It's my understanding that if your Base Fuel Table is correct, you should be able to run without Closed Loop and stick very close to your Target AFR. This is how most EFI systems worked up until somewhat recently (anything with a narrowband O2 sensor really).

    One of the questions that I haven't been able to answer is how acceleration enrichment settings do or do not affect Closed Loop & Learn adjustments? In other words, if the Base Fuel Table is correct and AE settings are wrong, what's the affect on Closed Loop & Learn? Could that condition lead to improper compensation from a Base Fuel Table point of view?

    I know that the mantra on these forums is to get the Base Fuel Table right before fooling with the AE settings. It seems to me though that if the AE settings are not close, the overly rich or overly lean conditions caused thereby could cause the Closed Loop & Learn functions to improperly adjust the Base Fuel Table.

    Additionally, how does the software define the AE base settings? Is it calculated based upon the setup parameters?

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