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Thread: Ignition Advice

  1. #1
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    Nov 2019
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    Illinois
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    Default Ignition Advice

    First off I want to thank you guys for all your comments to other questions I'm having. Moving to EFI has made me a bit nervous since I have zero experience. You guys have helped me get past that.

    I'm building a 421 SBC (Non LSx) and my engine builder suggested we go with the HP EFI MPFI. Originally we were looking at a Sniper, but I think the HP EFI system will allow me to grow down the road and allow more flexibility. (Thanks Danny for helping with this choice.) I'm told this engine should be making about 700 HP N/A and I plan to use it mainly on the street, but maybe do some autocross.

    My next question is ignition. Engine builder was pushing the MSD 8360 distributor at first. We're not going to worry about timing control from the EFI (trying not to complicate too much). From my research on this forum it does not look like the 8360 will work with the HP EFI system. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm waiting for an answer from Holley Tech.

    After a bit more research I'm looking at a Dual Sync Distributor. From the looks of the Dual Sync, it's Plug & Play in the HP EFI harness and will give me Cam & Crank sensors, so I can use true sequential MPFI. However, it does look like the Dual Sync will require a CD box, which I'm not apposed to, but I'm having a hard time trying to find which CD box would be recommended.

    I do have more questions about the Dual Sync setup, but I wanted to see what you guys recommend for my application/setup. Thanks in advance, Mike

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeP View Post
    Engine builder was pushing the MSD 8360 distributor at first. We're not going to worry about timing control from the EFI (trying not to complicate too much).
    After a bit more research I'm looking at a Dual Sync Distributor. From the looks of the Dual Sync, it's Plug & Play in the HP EFI harness and will give me Cam & Crank sensors, so I can use true sequential MPFI.
    Installing the Dual Sync Distributor without ECU controlled ignition timing is ridiculous.

    From my research on this forum it does not look like the 8360 will work with the HP EFI system. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm waiting for an answer from Holley Tech.
    It will if this isn't an ECU controlled timing application.

    However, it does look like the Dual Sync will require a CD box, which I'm not apposed to, but I'm having a hard time trying to find which CD box would be recommended.
    I always recommend using a CD ignition box with distributor type ignition systems. Here's why: LINK.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 MT tires.

  3. #3
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    Nov 2019
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    Illinois
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    Default

    Sorry, I should have specified Danny. You're correct, if we were to go with the 8360 distributor timing wouldn't be controlled by the ECU. I could not find any doc on how that would be wired to the ECU so I figured it would not work. Not sure if you know how it would be connected, all I can think of the "Yellow Coil -" wire from the ECU just need to be connected to the coil?

    If I went with the Dual Sync, I'd definitely use the ECU timing control. Since that requires a CD box, would the 6A be a good choice? From what I see in the EFI software all rev limiters, timing retards and all timing is controlled with the ECU, so getting a CD box with all those features (6AL or Digital 7) is not worth it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeP View Post
    From what I see in the EFI software all rev limiters, timing retards and all timing is controlled with the ECU, so getting a CD box with all those features (6AL or Digital 7) is not worth it.
    Correct, however, the digital circuitry is more reliable than the older analog models. Read this LINK, it has a note about CDI box & coil compatibility.

    Originally Posted by Danny Cabral
    FYI: Holley EFI now sells their own Dual Sync Hall-Effect distributors (LINK).
    They're a small cap design, "plug & play" with Holley EFI, and no need for a modified Firing Order.
    The crank & cam sensor signals also provide sequential injection capability (MPFI applications).
    It's "plug & play" (into the 10-pin ignition connector on the EFI Main Harness) and requires a CD
    ignition box (Instructions). The MSD 6201 Digital 6A CDI box & 8253 HVC-2 coil are a great match.
    The MSD CD ignition box is wired as shown in the Holley EFI Wiring Manual:
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual - Figure 11, Page 20)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM7r-DauCak (Holley EFI Dual Sync Distributor - YouTube Tech Video)
    A blank cap (LINK) is available, if the user decides to convert to Coil-Near-Plug/DIS later (no CDI box).
    Of course, this component can also be used as a crank and/or cam sync/oil pump drive unit.

    The Custom Ignition Parameters (in System Parameters) for the Holley EFI Dual Sync Distributor:
    Ignition Type ............. ― "Custom"
    Crank Sensor Type ..... ― "1 Pulse/Fire"
    Sensor Type .............. ― "Digital Falling"
    Inductive Delay .......... ― "100.0 usec" ( Synchronization info, adjusted per application.)
    Ignition Reference Angle ― "50°" ( Inherent rotor-phasing of this unit.)
    Cam Sensor Type ........ ― "Single Pulse" ( "Not Used" for TBI, unless CNP ignition.)
    Sensor Type .............. ― "Digital Falling"
    Output Setup Type ..... ― "Points Output" ( CDI box ground trigger.)
    Dwell Time ................. ― "2.0 msec" ( Do not set this to 1.5 msec!)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 MT tires.

  5. #5
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    Illinois
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    Thanks Danny, the Dual Sync looks like the way to go.

    One last question and I'm not sure if you can answer it at all. The nerd in me just would like to know how the Dual Sync knows where #1 post is so the Cam Sync works. I read the doc and watch a few YouTube videos of the install and I understand all that (setting the reference angle and crank sensor). I thought there was 8 pickups on the distributor to tell it when to fire each cylinder. Or is the Crank and Cam sensor only triggered once each rotation? Sorry for all the questions.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeP View Post
    I thought there was 8 pickups on the distributor to tell it when to fire each cylinder.
    There's two shutter blade wheels. The eight shutter blade wheel spins through the crank sensor. The one shutter blade wheel spins through the cam sensor.
    You'll follow the Holley Dual Sync Distributor instructions, but here's more tech info: http://forums.holley.com/showthread....m-Sensor-Setup (Crank & Cam Sensor Setup)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 MT tires.

  7. #7
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    Perfect, thanks for all your help Danny!

  8. #8
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    You're welcome. (I added some pertinent information to post #4 above.)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 MT tires.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeP View Post
    Sorry, I should have specified Danny. You're correct, if we were to go with the 8360 distributor timing wouldn't be controlled by the ECU. I could not find any doc on how that would be wired to the ECU so I figured it would not work. Not sure if you know how it would be connected, all I can think of the "Yellow Coil -" wire from the ECU just need to be connected to the coil?

    If I went with the Dual Sync, I'd definitely use the ECU timing control. Since that requires a CD box, would the 6A be a good choice? From what I see in the EFI software all rev limiters, timing retards and all timing is controlled with the ECU, so getting a CD box with all those features (6AL or Digital 7) is not worth it.
    For a 700 HP engine the dual sync with a HyperSpark ignition box should work. For a higher HP engine I'd ditch the distributor, ignition box & coil and just go straight to smart coils. If you're starting from scratch the smart coils are a little more money, but not a ton more. The cost of a dual sync + ignition box + good coil isn't that much less than the cost of the smart coil kit.

  10. #10
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    Nov 2019
    Location
    Illinois
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    Thanks Andy for the reply. What do you mean by "Smart Coil System"? Do you mean Coil-Near-Plug setup? Since I'm building this from scratch I did look into that option, but was not exactly sure how it would work. I'd still need a cam sensor to make that work right? I have a factory '66 Chevelle and not really sure where I would mount them. I'll search to see if there are any examples of how to mount them.

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