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Thread: Changed from 3 bar to 5 bar MAP and now car idles & runs terrible.

  1. #1

    Default Changed from 3 bar to 5 bar MAP and now car idles & runs terrible.

    Car has been running with the Holley 3 bar MAP for a few years and runs great. I switched to the Holley 5 bar SS MAP sensor in anticipation of running over 30 psi boost in the future. I swapped the sensor and updated the MAP sensor selection in the software. I'm still running Version 4 Build 30. The issue. the car idles terrible, very lean and barely stays running. When I crack the throttle it goes dead lean, pops through intake and shuts off. Do I have a bad sensor? I verified that the wiring is correct. The funny thing is, if I change the software setting back to the 3 bar MAP sensor, the car idles fine, but still goes lean when I crack the throttle. Does the ECU need time to relearn the Base Fuel Table for the new 5 bar MAP sensor?
    '93 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley Dominator EFI, Twin 66 mm, 347, TH 400, 3.27s - 8.54 @ 162 through the tailpipes on DRs
    '91 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley HP EFI, 410 with Novi 2000, 5 speed, 3.73s - tire destroyer!
    Coming this Fall, 2019 Mustang GT, A10 Auto, 3.0L Whipple - 9 second cruiser?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    23,061

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    You can't just change the MAP sensor in the Sensors ICF. Read Step #1: http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  3. #3

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    Basically, I have to build a whole new Global File using a custom tune, for example "500-600ci 45 PSI Gas.hefi", which uses a Holley 5 Bar MAP sensor. Then, I have to completely modify ALL parameters, so that it will run my Ford TFI 347 twin turbo. Also, I'll have to copy & paste all my fuel & spark table values from my old 3 bar tune into the newly created 5 bar tune to make the car run just as it did before the MAP swap? Isn't there a quicker way to successfully make the change from 3 bar to 5 bar MAP sensor? Can't I just modify my current 3 bar MAP tune so that the car will run the same as it did before, but with the addition of the 5 bar MAP sensor?
    '93 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley Dominator EFI, Twin 66 mm, 347, TH 400, 3.27s - 8.54 @ 162 through the tailpipes on DRs
    '91 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley HP EFI, 410 with Novi 2000, 5 speed, 3.73s - tire destroyer!
    Coming this Fall, 2019 Mustang GT, A10 Auto, 3.0L Whipple - 9 second cruiser?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    23,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Twin66mmTurboLX View Post
    Basically, I have to build a whole new Global File using a custom tune, for example "500-600ci 45 PSI Gas.hefi", which uses a Holley 5 Bar MAP sensor. Then, I have to completely modify ALL parameters, so that it will run my Ford TFI 347 twin turbo.
    No, that's not necessary.

    Isn't there a quicker way to successfully make the change from 3 bar to 5 bar MAP sensor?
    Simply copy & paste the 5 bar MAP sensor Base Fuel & Timing Tables (from the base calibration) onto your current Global File. It should take a few minutes at the most.

    Can't I just modify my current 3 bar MAP tune so that the car will run the same as it did before, but with the addition of the 5 bar MAP sensor?
    Yes, if you know how to copy & paste those same 3 bar MAP kPa rows back into your current Global File, and add the new 4 & 5 bar MAP kPa rows in. Then blend the Fuel Graph smooth.
    https://forums.holley.com/showthread...0606#post70606 (Related Forum Thread)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  5. #5

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    Thanks for clarifying the process, Danny. I'll give it a shot and let you know how it turns out.
    '93 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley Dominator EFI, Twin 66 mm, 347, TH 400, 3.27s - 8.54 @ 162 through the tailpipes on DRs
    '91 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley HP EFI, 410 with Novi 2000, 5 speed, 3.73s - tire destroyer!
    Coming this Fall, 2019 Mustang GT, A10 Auto, 3.0L Whipple - 9 second cruiser?

  6. #6

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    OK. I'm a little confused on this process. What exactly am I copying into my Base Fuel & Timing tables? Am I only changing the X & Y axis values? So let's say I take my current Global File, which is a 3 bar MAP file. I go into Sensors ICF and change to the Holley 5 bar SS sensor, then where do I go from here? I can't find a 5 bar base tune anywhere? I'm not sure why this makes no sense to me. What changes in the EFI software when you change from 3 bar to 5 bar? If I copy & paste a 5 bar Base Fuel Table value scale into my current tune, how will my car even run? Won't I need my current fuel values for the car to run again normally? Sorry, I'm totally confused with this process. Seems like you should just be able to change the sensor to 5 bar and the EFI software should automatically adjust my current fuel values.
    '93 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley Dominator EFI, Twin 66 mm, 347, TH 400, 3.27s - 8.54 @ 162 through the tailpipes on DRs
    '91 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley HP EFI, 410 with Novi 2000, 5 speed, 3.73s - tire destroyer!
    Coming this Fall, 2019 Mustang GT, A10 Auto, 3.0L Whipple - 9 second cruiser?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twin66mmTurboLX View Post
    I can't find a 5 bar base tune anywhere?
    The 540ci Race Gas F3.hefi is a 5 bar base calibration.
    The 500-600ci 45 PSI Gas.hefi is a 5 bar base calibration.
    The 418ci 40 PSI Turbo.hefi is a 5 bar base calibration.
    The 330ci 40 PSI Turbo.hefi is a 5 bar base calibration (V4).
    The 420ci 40 PSI Turbo.hefi is a 5 bar base calibration (V4).
    The 500-600ci 45 PSI Methanol.hefi is a 5 bar base calibration (V4).
    The 540ci Methanol Vortech 123.hefi is a 5 bar base calibration.
    The 427ci Methanol Twin Turbo 40 PSI is a 5 bar base calibration (V4).

    I'm not sure why this makes no sense to me. What changes in the EFI software when you change from 3 bar to 5 bar?
    Read 3rd paragraph under Step #1: http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)

    If I copy & paste a 5 bar Base Fuel Table value scale into my current tune, how will my car even run?
    Because the 5 bar Base Fuel & Timing Tables still have your MAP kPa idle value, it's just moved down the axis a little bit.

    Won't I need my current fuel values for the car to run again normally? Sorry, I'm totally confused with this process.
    The Learn Table will self-tune the Base Fuel Table again.

    Seems like you should just be able to change the sensor to 5 bar and the EFI software should automatically adjust my current fuel values.
    No. Read 3rd paragraph under Step #1: http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  8. #8

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    My current tune Fuel & Spark tables only goes out to 7000 RPM. It appears that the 5 bar base tune examples go out to 9000 RPM. Will this be an issue when I copy & paste the 540ci F3 Fuel & Spark values into my existing tune? Won't the fuel values for such a big engine be too large for my car to even idle long enough for it to start Learning again? In summary, since I want to change from my 3 bar sensor to a 5 bar sensor (to run over 30 psi boost in the near future), now my ECU has to completely relearn all my fuel values?

    In detail: I copy & paste the fuel values from the "540 F3" base tune into my fuel table, but what if I wanted to put my old fuel values back into the table? I guess I'm missing the boat on this. It seems like I'm copying values from a 5 bar MAP base tune into my fuel table, but then turning around and putting my old values right back in the table again. Doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'll just stay with my 3 bar MAP tune I have currently until I can wrap my head around the 5 bar MAP change process.
    '93 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley Dominator EFI, Twin 66 mm, 347, TH 400, 3.27s - 8.54 @ 162 through the tailpipes on DRs
    '91 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley HP EFI, 410 with Novi 2000, 5 speed, 3.73s - tire destroyer!
    Coming this Fall, 2019 Mustang GT, A10 Auto, 3.0L Whipple - 9 second cruiser?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twin66mmTurboLX View Post
    In detail: I copy & paste the fuel values from the "540 F3" base tune into my fuel table, but what if I wanted to put my old fuel values back into the table?
    If you want the Base Fuel & Timing Tables as close to your tuned 3 bar & under values, then copy & paste those corresponding MAP kPa rows onto the new 5 bar Base Fuel & Timing Tables. The the only new MAP kPa rows will be from 3 bar to 5 bar. Yes, you're creating new Base Fuel & Timing Tables, but with some current 3 bar & under MAP kPa rows. Then blend the Fuel Graph smooth. If you don't understand this, you'll need someone to help you.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  10. #10

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    None of my V4 Custom Global .hefi files have a 5 bar setup. 3.5 bar is highest I've seen. Can you direct me to where I can access one to copy the fuel & spark MAP kPa rows?
    '93 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley Dominator EFI, Twin 66 mm, 347, TH 400, 3.27s - 8.54 @ 162 through the tailpipes on DRs
    '91 Mustang LX Sedan, Holley HP EFI, 410 with Novi 2000, 5 speed, 3.73s - tire destroyer!
    Coming this Fall, 2019 Mustang GT, A10 Auto, 3.0L Whipple - 9 second cruiser?

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