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Thread: CDI Part No 4217

  1. #31
    crmc33 Guest

    Default Xr650l

    Hi Bret,

    Sorry about the delay in reply.
    Ive not yet completed the welding of a spare pulser dog. Once this is done and fitted then I'll report back.

    Unfortunately, Im doing other mods to my bike at the same time so it will be difficult to see what benefit the MDS ign will give me. But Im sure I'll be able to improve the bike either way with a few dyno runs.

  2. #32
    crmc33 Guest

    Default

    Hi Bret,

    I am just trying to get my 4217 working on the XR650L based engine. At long last!!
    I have modded the OE Honda pulser tab by welding and grinding the leading edge so it now has 60deg tab width. However, the TE of the tab is measured to be approx 26deg BTDC (this is the same on all the RFVC engines).

    Does this mean that I will have 26deg of advance at idle? I hope not as I assume I'll have trouble starting the engine. I could possibly grind the timing dent off the crank (where the pulser wheel locates) and re-time it so that the TE of the tab is around 0deg TDC. Isnt there any way of telling the software the relative location of the TE of the tab?

    Also, With regards to the Timing curves on the software, are they total timing or just advance figures. ie if I have 26 deg idle timing, I only need +5 degs to get a total of 31degs. I just need to make sure!!

    Any help is much appreciated!!

    Adam

  3. #33

    Default 4217

    Hello again Adam,
    I'm not sure I understand your first statement but if you have 26 degrees of initial timing than this is where your bike will start and idle at. This will also mean that "0" degrees on you graph also represents 26 degrees. This is quite a bit of timing being that this number is usually around 10 degrees more or less. If your timing tab is programmed into the software as 60 degrees then your total timing will be 86 degrees with available adjustable timing of approximately 58 to 60 degrees. It is not possible to program the tab location on your flywheel in reference to TDC. The ignition only sees the rising and falling edges of the tab and can control timing across this distance.
    You have 50 degrees plus of available timing so 5 degrees is not going to be an issue. However, if possible I would shrink that initial timing number down to 10 degrees more or less and use your available timing from your 60 degree tab width to achieve your desired timing. Would it be possible to give me a call when you have a chance? You can reach me at 888-258-3835. Thanks again. Bret- MSD Powersports

  4. #34
    crmc33 Guest

    Default

    Bret,

    Thanks for the advice.
    I have now ground two of the 22 splines off my pickup rotor to retard the timing by approx 33degs (360/22, x 2) as I had worked out myself that there was no way I could really run the engine with 26 degs of idle timing (I assume Honda must retard this timing electronically on their CDI? as all the engines use the same rotor timing)

    Anyway, the 2 splines of retarding have taken 33 degs off the 26degs of idle timing to give me -7degs (ie 7degs retarded). I then rechecked the the Trailing edge timing at TDC as it seems correct.
    I have compensated for this using the advance curves in my 4217 by adding on 17degs to give me 10 degs of idle timing and have rotated the engine by hand and the timing seems correct. I assume the 4217 will do this OK? The rest of my curves assume have 7 degrees added to them to account for this retarded start point.
    The other advantage of a retarded starting point is that it enables me to try a range of idle settings without having to touch the pickup rotor posn.

    One interesting thing I found was that the spark fired when I rotated the engine backwards but didnt spark when rotated fwds. I swapped my pickup +ve and -ve and it now fires when rotated fwds. Just thought I would mention it as it seems a simple way of checking pickup polarity!!

    Any help is much appreciated - even if it is just to confirm if my idle set-up of retardation+advance compensation should work ok with the 4217.

    I have also noticed that when I plug in the PC then I get a 'wandering' value of TPS of various numbers btwn 4 and 10 with the engine not running. I am not using a TPS so have set all the WOTcurves to 0degs and do not have them active on my software.
    Does this sound OK? I dont want the system to think Im running a TPS and start retarding the ignition. The three TPS wires have been cut short and terminated in a unconnected terminal block just in case I ever fit one.

    Its a great product by the way, very impressed so far. Just got to see how she runs now. Will keep you posted.

  5. #35

    Default 4217

    The "wandering" value of the TPS in monitor section is normal. This is the residual voltage I believe we talked about in previous conversations. This value will always be there regardless of whether or not the TPS wires are connected or not. We recommend running both the closed and wide open throttle graphs the same (overlapped). This will prevent the ignition from wanting to follow the wide open graph which is based on voltage (0 to 5 volts). Im not sure I understand your statement "splines on your rotor" is this the flywheel you are referring to? Would you happen to have a picture you can post here or e-mail me. From what you have told me I think you may have gone to far on your initial timing. Keep in mind that the 4217 fires off the trailing edge of the tab on your flywheel. If you have seven degrees of initial retard when cranking, your bike may not start and if it does it is going to run pretty bad. Ultimately the 4217 needs to see some initial advance to function properly. Please let me know about the photo. Thanks again, Bret- MSD Powersports

  6. #36
    crmc33 Guest

    Default

    I can take a picture of a spare pickup rotor I have (this is on the primary drive side of the crank not the generator).
    The RFVC Honda engines run a splined collar on this side next to the primary drive gear. It has 22 internal splines onto the crank. So one spline ground off gives about 16-17 degs of advance/retard depending on the side its taken off.

    My picture should explain! Will do that tomorrow.

    My TE is 7degs retarded from TDC but I have added 13-17degs of advance on the 0-1500rpm section to compensate. Its quite a big job to take the rotor off and move it round one spline (this would give about 9 degs of idle advance) and my thinking is that I may need less (the XR600 runs 6 degs for example) and cant get it with just retarding the rotor by one spline.

    Is the 4217 clever enough to add the 13 degs of advance Ive specified right from 0 rpm? It seems like it it as I can see its set right with the engine off. BTW, I havent started the engine yet but should be able to at the weekend once other jobs have been done. Im tempted to just try it as it stands.

  7. #37
    crmc33 Guest

    Default

    I can take a picture of a spare pickup rotor I have (this is on the primary drive side of the crank not the generator).
    The RFVC Honda engines run a splined collar on this side next to the primary drive gear. It has 22 internal splines onto the crank. So one spline ground off gives about 16-17 degs of advance/retard depending on the side its taken off.

    My picture should explain! Will do that tomorrow.

    My TE is 7degs retarded from TDC but I have added 13-17degs of advance on the 0-1500rpm section to compensate. Its quite a big job to take the rotor off and move it round one spline (this would give about 9 degs of idle advance) and my thinking is that I may need less (the XR600 runs 6 degs for example) and cant get it with just retarding the rotor by one spline.

    Is the 4217 clever enough to add the 13 degs of advance Ive specified right from 0 rpm? It seems like it is as I can see its set right with the engine off. BTW, I havent started the engine yet but should be able to at the weekend once other jobs have been done. Im tempted to just try it as it stands unless you know for certain that the 4217 cant advance it at low rpm.

  8. #38

    Default 4217

    Once the bike is started you should be able to control timing according to your tab width. So as long as you have enough adjustability then you should be fine once it starts. Would you prefer sending the picture to my e-mail? Whatever is easiest for you will work for me. Please let me know. Thanks, Bret-MSD Powersports

  9. #39
    crmc33 Guest

    Default

    Hi,

    yes email would be easiest to save me hosting the pic online.

    Let me know your email or email me at adam-at-motopike.com

    Thanks,

    Adam

  10. #40

    Default 4217

    My email address is.............bkugler@msdignition.com

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