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Thread: Sudden severe overfueling with my Sniper EFI.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    Middle River, MD
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    Question Sudden severe overfueling with my Sniper EFI.

    Was off today, so decided to take my car out for a spin.
    Started and ran great, drove it around a bit, no problems whatsoever.
    Stopped home to grab a quick sandwich, then came out and drove to my local range.
    Ran great so far, idle, cruise, WOT, running awesome.

    Went into the range for about an hour.
    Came out and started the car, and noticed the WBO2 sensor reading, AFR, was steady climbing, and actually topped out at 35.6.
    Also, the CL COMP % was at 100, as was the CURRENT LEARN, also at 100.
    I did also notice the INJECTOR P/W was way high, like 11.6%, at just off idle, where it normally may be like 2%.

    It was now barely running.
    I shut off the engine, and hoped it just was a fluke, or something.
    I was kind of stranded, so it seemed like it ran slightly better when I put it back into OPEN LOOP, not much better, but good enough to get me back to the garage.
    Looking down throat of the TB, with butterflies open, the intake was soaked with gas, and the small vent at rear, top of
    TB was showing that smokey look, like a carb would do when say you had a stuck float, and the engine was badly flooded.
    That's also how it was running.

    Nothing is burnt through, or disconnected.
    It was great when I parked it, and barely driveable when I started it last time to go home.

    I made a few quick videos, and snapped a couple pics of the handheld screen.
    I even tried re-entering the tune parameters, thinking it somehow was corrupted.
    I'm always looking at the handheld screen, since I use it as a Monitor, and everything was reading OK, like always.
    Nothing appeared odd at all, which is kinda weird.

    The first video, you can see the PW goes DOWN, when revved, which is very odd:
    https://youtu.be/NG0wC5CFBrs
    Running rougher & rougher:
    https://youtu.be/1vw0RZi41Po
    In OPEN LOOP:
    https://youtu.be/OnMpZAQu2Wk
    And the fumes/smoke from throttle body, which was much worse before I was able to record it:
    https://youtu.be/3EROJ1iPxTw

    Here's two still pictures. I did do a datalog, but obviously I'm not able to read it yet:
    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    Defective WBO2 sensor, WBO2 sensor wiring, or an exhaust leak upstream of the WBO2 sensor. The defective WBO2 sensor or exhaust leak causes the WBO2 sensor to transmit a lean signal to the ECU, and the ECU therefore continues to enrich the AFR (trying to achieve the Target A/F Ratio via Closed Loop Compensation).
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....4669#post84669 (Related Forum Thread)

    Your tune should not be programmed to allow it to run horribly (even with a defective WBO2 sensor). When the engine is tuned & running well, you should've decreased the Closed Loop and Learned Compensation Limits % to lock in a good tune. When the Learn Table values stop making significant changes, the ECU is finished self-tuning. Do not "Transfer Learned Data" to the Base Fuel Table, because it's corrupted from a skewed WBO2 sensor feedback condition.
    http://documents.holley.com/199r11031r.pdf (Holley Sniper EFI Instruction Manual - "Closed Loop Limit", "Learn Compensation Limits" & "Transfer Learned Data", Page 29 & 30)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, 11:1 comp ratio, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, Spal dual 12" fans/aluminum radiator, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, Moroso vacuum pump, Accusump, engine oil & trans fluid coolers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2500 RPM converter, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, traction bars, 4" Skyjacker lift, 35" mud tires

  3. #3
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    Oct 2016
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    Well, that sucks. I can't win.

    It's definitely going FULL LEAN.
    The wiring is secured well out of the way, so I don't think it's that.
    There's definitely no exhaust leaks. FWIW, my WBO2 sensor is before the collector joint, where it connects to exhaust.
    Only possible spot to leak would be at the cylinder head, but that's not happening either.

    Is the sensor something I can source locally? In other words, do you happen to have, or know the number?
    I was able to find a spare for the old FiTech EFI, but haven't even looked into a spare for this one yet.
    Thanks for the quick reply.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by rel3rd View Post
    Well, that sucks. I can't win.
    A short lived WBO2 sensor is usually an installation or location problem.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ension-Harness (WBO2 Sensor Information - Read 4th & 5th paragraph under "Wideband O2 Sensor Notes".)

    Is the sensor something I can source locally? In other words, do you happen to have, or know the number?
    It's the very first "Parts Identification" item on page 2. Contact Holley Tech Service (LINK).
    http://documents.holley.com/199r11031r.pdf (Holley Sniper EFI Instruction Manual - "Parts Identification", Page 2)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, 11:1 comp ratio, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, Spal dual 12" fans/aluminum radiator, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, Moroso vacuum pump, Accusump, engine oil & trans fluid coolers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2500 RPM converter, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, traction bars, 4" Skyjacker lift, 35" mud tires

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Your tune should not be programmed to allow it to run horribly (even with a defective WBO2 sensor). When the engine is tuned & running well, you should've decreased the Closed Loop and Learned Compensation Limits % to lock in a good tune. When the Learn Table values stop making significant changes, the ECU is finished self-tuning. Do not "Transfer Learned Data" to the Base Fuel Table, because it's corrupted from a skewed WBO2 sensor feedback condition.
    http://documents.holley.com/199r11031r.pdf (Holley Sniper EFI Instruction Manual - "Closed Loop Limit", "Learn Compensation Limits" & "Transfer Learned Data", Page 29 & 30)
    This is running WAY rich, and did so from one start & drive, to one an hour later, which is what had me puzzled. It hasn't run long enough to cut back on the Learning Danny. The last time I drove it, was right after swapping back to NON Timing Control, so it was almost starting from scratch. I thought with me putting it into OPEN LOOP, it would bypass the wideband sensor? Here's how much fuel it is dumping at idle: https://youtu.be/O3nW5C_QVV4

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    A short lived WBO2 sensor is usually an installation or location problem.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ension-Harness (WBO2 Sensor Information - Read 4th & 5th paragraph under "Wideband O2 Sensor Notes".)

    It's the very first "Parts Identification" item on page 2. Contact Holley Tech Service (LINK).
    http://documents.holley.com/199r11031r.pdf (Holley Sniper EFI Instruction Manual - "Parts Identification", Page 2)
    Well, believe it or not. Holley.com does not show/list that part number on their site. The WBO2 sensor location is the exact same one I used on my FiTech system, for 10 months without any issues whatsoever. It's a welded bung at a 15°-16° angle, as measured with an angle finder.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rel3rd View Post
    I thought with me putting it into OPEN LOOP, it would bypass the wideband sensor?
    Yes, it does. However, the Learn Table is still corrupted with grossly enriched values. Does the Sniper TSLCD allow you to Clear the Learn Table? If so, do it and set it to Open Loop (until you receive a new WBO2 sensor).

    Well, believe it or not. Holley.com does not show/list that part number on their site.
    Well that must really tick you off. LOL! (Sorry, I know it's not funny.) Anyway, that's why I suggested calling them.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, 11:1 comp ratio, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, Spal dual 12" fans/aluminum radiator, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, Moroso vacuum pump, Accusump, engine oil & trans fluid coolers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2500 RPM converter, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, traction bars, 4" Skyjacker lift, 35" mud tires

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Yes, it does. However, the Learn Table is still corrupted with grossly enriched values. Does the Sniper TSLCD allow you to Clear the Learn Table? If so, do it and set it to Open Loop (until you receive a new WBO2 sensor).
    Well that must really tick you off. LOL! (Sorry, I know it's not funny.) Anyway, that's why I suggested calling them.
    LOL...I deserved that one.
    I ordered a new Bosch WBO2 sensor, should be here Tuesday.
    I don't think it can be deleted. I usually just reflash when going back and forth with timing control. It seems to be starting over when I do that?
    I do know OPEN LOOP did not make it run much better at all, but I'm going to close the hood until Tuesday.
    Merry Christmas and thanks for the help. I'll update you on Tuesday afternoon.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rel3rd View Post
    I do know OPEN LOOP did not make it run much better at all, but I'm going to close the hood until Tuesday.
    Yeah, that's because setting it to Open Loop is only step one of the fix. Clearing the corrupted Learn Table (or reloading the base calibration) is step two of the fix.
    Merry Christmas and you're welcome.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, 11:1 comp ratio, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, Spal dual 12" fans/aluminum radiator, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, Moroso vacuum pump, Accusump, engine oil & trans fluid coolers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2500 RPM converter, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, traction bars, 4" Skyjacker lift, 35" mud tires

  9. #9
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    Well, I couldn't take the pressure Danny. I stopped by the shop on the way to the gym, reloaded tune from scratch, and disabled Closed Loop.

    Other than still being a bit loaded up from yesterday, started right up and actually ran pretty good. It cleaned up probably as good as it could be with it being forced to stay in Open Loop. The bright side is that if this happens again, at least I'll know the 2 steps needed to get me back home, without getting negative MPG, LOL.

    I'm a little upset with myself for not realizing that putting it into Open Loop yesterday, accomplished nothing without reflashing it too. I won't make that mistake again. I'll post back after new sensor is here, and installed.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rel3rd View Post
    The bright side is that if this happens again, at least I'll know the 2 steps needed to get me back home, without getting negative MPG, LOL.
    Evidently, the 3.5" TSLCD doesn't have the option to "Clear" the Learn Table. I'll bring this to Holley's attention. Of course, the Holley EFI software (for all their EFI systems) has this capability.

    I'm a little upset with myself for not realizing that putting it into Open Loop yesterday, accomplished nothing without reflashing it too. I won't make that mistake again.
    Well that's because we naturally rush to judgement when something is seriously wrong. I'm glad you're at least running again.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, 11:1 comp ratio, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, Spal dual 12" fans/aluminum radiator, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, Moroso vacuum pump, Accusump, engine oil & trans fluid coolers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2500 RPM converter, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, traction bars, 4" Skyjacker lift, 35" mud tires

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