Need help ASAP please!

[bbsdesigns]

On December 10th, my brother & I will attend a Chin Motorsports event in Seabring, but I'm still trying to figure out why the crank trigger setup isn't working.

This is what we have:
A VG30 Nissan V6 with a Holley Commander 950 that is working properly with a modified distributor with reluctor wheel & points trigger.
Everything was working perfectly. We wanted to change to a crank trigger because the modified Nissan/GM distributor was not consistent.

We now changed our setup to a Holley Hall-Effect magnetic sensor with ferrous crank trigger wheel.
The sensor is setup at .060" from the wheel (max is .080" & min is .040"). I have 62-2, 36-1, 30-1 & 18-1 wheels and nothing is working.
The wiring to the MSD 6A is done correctly, the Engine Parameters are setup to Hall-Effect & 60° Ignition Reference Angle.
I have setup the engine in TDC and have phased the distributor. I have check for spark and there is spark.
I have setup the wheels in various locations almost turning them (tried with all the wheels), and nothing.

At one point the engine fired up when the Ignition Reference Angle was at 10°, and started up rapidly and with perfect idle.
But when we tried to further more fine tune and moved the trigger wheel's position, and corrected
the ignition reference position (I noticed that it was reading on the right side of the map), no more.

PLEASE, I NEED HELP!!! TIME IS RUNNING OUT AND IS VERY FRUSTRATING.

[Danny Cabral]

I have 62-2, 36-1, 30-1 & 18-1 wheels and nothing is working.

The Holley Commander 950 is only compatible with a 2x, 3x, 4x crank trigger kit (such as an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger kit).
http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_r10149-7.pdf (Holley Commander 950 Pro EFI Manual - Figure 84, Page 109)

[bbsdesigns]

Thanks for your response!!! But I have a question. In the manual, it specifies the installation of the 3-wire Hall-Effect sensor. Isn't that the sensor for ferrous target?

[Danny Cabral]

In the manual, it specifies the installation of the 3-wire Hall-Effect sensor. Isn't that the sensor for ferrous target?

Yes, a 2x, 3x, 4x ferrous target. (Or you should be able to use Holley's 554-118 Hall-Effect crank sensor with an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger kit.)

At one point the engine fired up when the Ignition Reference Angle was at 10°, and started up rapidly and with perfect idle. But when we tried to further more fine tune and moved the trigger wheel's position, and corrected the ignition reference position (I noticed that it was reading on the right side of the map), no more.

Ignition Reference – This angle corresponds to the position of the ignition-triggering device in crankshaft degrees. The following are guidelines for different ignition systems:
GM HEI – Set to 10
Ford TFI – Set to 10
Crank Trigger & Hall Effect – Set (at least) 10° HIGHER than the maximum amount of timing set in the Main Spark Map. For example, if you will have a maximum timing of 42°, set the
Ignition Reference to 52°, and align the crank sensor with the magnet at 52° Before Top Dead Center. When I used the C950, I set my Ignition Reference (Hall-Effect distributor) to 60°.

[bbsdesigns]

Yes, a 2x, 3x, 4x ferrous target. (Or you should be able to use Holley's 554-118 Hall-Effect crank sensor with an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger kit.)

Does this mean I can have cut a custom 4 tooth 1/4" thick steel ferrous trigger wheel, and use it?
I have the Holley 554-124 Hall-Effect 3-wire crank sensor for ferrous targets.
Sorry if I sound like an idiot, it's just this is my first crank trigger setup install.
BTW: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE HELP!!!

[Danny Cabral]

Does this mean I can have cut a custom 4 tooth 1/4" thick steel ferrous trigger wheel, and use it?

Yes, as stated in the Commander 950 Pro EFI Manual (page 20 & 25):
"Crank Trigger CD Ignition Systems – The Commander 950 Pro EFI can control the timing on any
engine that uses a crank trigger (Magnetic or Hall-Effect) and a capacitive discharge ignition box."

"Inductive Pickup – Use with a magnetic pickup crank trigger.
Hall Effect – Use with a Hall Effect crank trigger of Hall Effect Distributor."

I have the Holley 554-124 Hall-Effect 3-wire crank sensor for ferrous targets.

Yes, that's the proper type Hall-Effect crank sensor for a ferrous trigger wheel.

BTW: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE HELP!!!

You're welcome.

[bbsdesigns]

Does it matter if the engine is a V6 and use a 4 tooth trigger wheel, or do I have to make a 6 tooth wheel out of the ferrous material? Thanks again!

[Danny Cabral]

An eight cylinder engine uses a 4x crank trigger wheel. A six cylinder engine uses a 3x crank trigger wheel. A four cylinder engine uses a 2x crank trigger wheel. (LINK - Figure 1)

[bbsdesigns]

I've looked & searched everywhere for aftermarket ferrous wheels with the application I needed, only thing I've found is magnetic wheels.

[Danny Cabral]

So use a magnetic trigger wheel with a VR magnetic (inductive) sensor.

As stated in the Commander 950 Pro EFI Manual (page 20 & 25):
"Crank Trigger CD Ignition Systems – The Commander 950 Pro EFI can control the timing on any
engine that uses a crank trigger (Magnetic or Hall-Effect) and a capacitive discharge ignition box."

"Inductive Pickup – Use with a magnetic pickup crank trigger.
Hall Effect – Use with a Hall Effect crank trigger of Hall Effect Distributor."

[bbsdesigns]

No it's OK, I can have any wheel cut to any size & style. I have access to a laser and water jet cutter. The reason I said it, is that I looked & searched everywhere and since I didn't saw anything like that. I thought it was not possible to use a Hall-Effect and ferrous wheel of only a few teeth.

So just to be clear, the computer will tell the MSD 6A to fire the ignition coil every time the Hall-Effect sensor detects a tooth, right? And since the distributor turns just 1/2 for each crankshaft turn, each tooth of the three (3) toothed trigger wheel will fire six (6) times every two complete crankshaft rotations, completing the four (4) cycles of each of the 6 cylinders, correct?

[Danny Cabral]

So just to be clear, the computer will tell the MSD 6A to fire the ignition coil every time the Hall-Effect sensor detects a tooth, right? And since the distributor turns just 1/2 for each crankshaft turn, each tooth of the three (3) toothed trigger wheel will fire six (6) times every two complete crankshaft rotations, completing the four (4) cycles of each of the 6 cylinders, correct?

Yes & yes.

[bbsdesigns]

Thanks Danny. One more question, and hopefully the last. Since the trigger wheel will only have three (3) teeth, does it necessarily have to be a circular/round shape trigger with the three (3) teeth, or can I make a three legged rotating triangular shaped trigger wheel, like a "Y". Example below? Again, many thanks!

[Danny Cabral]

I personally wouldn't do that for durability/bending reasons. Also, I wouldn't make the teeth a sharp point. I prefer definitive Digital Rising & Digital Falling edges.

[bbsdesigns]

OK, I took one 30-1 trigger wheel and cut all the teeth except 3 tooth separated at 120 degrees from each other. Car fired up! But I'm now encountering these weird problems:
The car starts & runs perfectly, but for no apparent reason it suddenly begins to have the following symptoms; misfire, won't accelerate & rough idle.
I checked everything, and did not find any problems. After a while with the engine off, the car will start normally.
Also, if I shut off the engine and resend the data to the ECU, it cures the problem momentarily until it does it again. Could be minutes 5-45 minutes maybe.

I replaced the Holley Commander 950 ECU that was giving me problems just to check and it "solved" the problem. But the replacement ECU won't let me make any changes in the Fuel nor the Spark Map. The only changes the program let me do are in the lowest row of the Fuel & Spark Map. Why? Does it has to do something with the software version? Why does the other computer suddenly begin to misfire & malfunction? Does it has to do something with the "new" parts installed (MSD 6A & trigger setup)? Please help, this is becoming very frustrating. Race weekend is just around the corner.

Notes: The MSD that was installed is a working used unit we bought. The problems with the Holley ECU are showing now with the crank trigger setup & MSD. We have an aftermarket tach connected to the MSD's wire that connects to the negative side of the coil. When the problem first appeared, the tach stopped working and has stopped working ever since. Even when the problem is gone with the temporary "cure" we do (shutting off the engine/resend the data to ECU). The MSD is getting warm and making a buzzing like noise/sound, is that normal? The MSD is a 6A model 6200, and I think it's not "Digital" type, does it matter if it's not a Digital ignition box?