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Thread: New Terminator user here with a little problem.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    Louisville, KY
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    15

    Default New Terminator user here with a little problem.

    Hi all, I recently picked up a Terminator system for my mild 355 SBC in a 1973 Camaro Z28. The installation was pretty straight forward. The car has an unknown (to me) moderate cam, MSD HEI large cap distributor, mid-length headers (the car is lowered a couple of inches, and long tubes won't make it in or out of my driveway). I have a Tanks, Inc tank with a 255lph Walbro in-tank pump, feeding a Holley 12-846 EFI regulator, which I put on out of the box with the factory (I hope) adjustment at 43.5 lbs. The engine has an older Edelbrock Performer dual-plane manifold (red flag #1) on it.

    The WBO2 sensor is located in the driver side header collector, at an appropriate angle to avoid condensation. The regulator has a Holley pressure sensor in it. The wiring is away from any noisy electrical interference, and all of the connections to the battery and ground are well made. The ECU is getting its RPM signal from the tach output on the distributor.

    I ran through the wizard, selected "Don't Know" for the cam, did the TPS AutoSet, checked the system for fuel leaks, and fired it up. It caught on the second try and ran...OK. But when I checked the gauge screen (small original handheld) it showed 28 lbs fuel pressure and AFR of 35.6 with a red bar, and it seems to be dumping fuel in to try and get the AFR down. I checked the system for vacuum leaks and didn't find any. I also went back and checked the wiring and the WBO2 sensor and everything seems to be in order.

    With the AFR that high, I'm afraid to let it run for long for fear of washing out the rings or worse.
    I've done some research and I'm pretty sure that intake is causing some problems, but why the high AFR and low fuel pressure? Any thoughts?

    -Chuck

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    Melbourne, Florida
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    Default

    Fuel pressure will be lower at idle with the vacuum connected, this is normal. You want to set the fuel pressure with vacuum disconnected for this reason. I think you are saying your AFR is 35.6:1, but the sensor maxes out at 28:1, so I'm not sure what you are saying there. 14.7:1 is lean idle for modern engines, but you might like around 14:1 and 12.7:1 would be rich WOT roughly. If you find it is too lean, you likely choose a file with a larger cam than you have, and it has less fuel at idle to go with the weaker vac of a bigger cam. You can try a smaller cam option and see if that is better. Danny will have better answers for the premade tune selections. If the engine gets to about 100-120 degrees, the closed loop will kick in and add or remove fuel to get to the commanded AFR, and a little higher in temp, it will Learn from that adjustment to self tune the engine to build a map just for your motor.
    Shawn Dickens
    Builder/Tuner at www.waterthunder.com
    Chevy LS Airboat Motor Specialists

    Technical Adviser for www.holleyinjection.com
    A site owned & managed by Cyber Space Automotive.
    Authorized Holley EFI Dealer

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
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    22,906

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    Quote Originally Posted by landpilot View Post
    But when I checked the gauge screen (small original handheld) it showed 28 lbs fuel pressure and AFR of 35.6 with a red bar, and it seems to be dumping fuel in to try and get the AFR down.
    Ensure there aren't any exhaust leaks upstream of the WBO2 sensor, and there's sufficient length of exhaust piping beyond the WBO2 sensor.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dickens View Post
    I think you are saying your AFR is 35.6:1, but the sensor maxes out at 28:1, so I'm not sure what you are saying there.
    Key-on/engine-off & cold, the Bosch WBO2 sensor displays about 35:1 AFR. The NTK WBO2 sensor displays about 29:1 AFR.
    After turning the engine off, exhaust gases need to dissipate before seeing these full lean AFRs (key-on/engine-off & cold).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  4. #4
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    Louisville, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dickens View Post
    Fuel pressure will be lower at idle with the vacuum connected, this is normal. You want to set the fuel pressure with vacuum disconnected for this reason. I think you are saying your AFR is 35.6:1, but the sensor maxes out at 28:1, so I'm not sure what you are saying there. 14.7:1 is lean idle for modern engines, but you might like around 14:1 and 12.7:1 would be rich WOT roughly. If you find it is too lean, you likely choose a file with a larger cam than you have, and it has less fuel at idle to go with the weaker vac of a bigger cam. You can try a smaller cam option and see if that is better. Danny will have better answers for the premade tune selections. If the engine gets to about 100-120 degrees, the closed loop will kick in and add or remove fuel to get to the commanded AFR, and a little higher in temp, it will Learn from that adjustment to self tune the engine to build a map just for your motor.
    Thanks guys for the quick replies! The vacuum was disconnected when the pressure was reading 28 lbs/hr. In all likelihood you are probably correct about the cam; I don't know what is in it, but it has a lopey idle, and it makes less than 15" of vacuum at idle (I think more like 11-13").

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Ensure there aren't any exhaust leaks upstream of the WBO2 sensor, and there's sufficient length of exhaust piping beyond the WBO2 sensor.

    Key-on/engine-off & cold, the Bosch WBO2 sensor displays about 35:1 AFR. The NTK WBO2 sensor displays about 29:1 AFR.
    After turning the engine off, exhaust gases need to dissipate before seeing these full lean AFRs (key-on/engine-off & cold).
    That would make sense for what I was seeing, thanks. The engine warmed up to about 125°, but was running incredibly rich at that point and the WBO2 was still reading 35+. I got concerned and shut it down, probably didn't let it warm up enough? On the exhaust side, there are no signs/sounds of a leak (all new gaskets, good seal at the head and the collector), with the WBO2 in the collector. There's about 30" before an x-pipe crossover, is that OK?

    Oh, and it does have one of those 4-hole phenolic spacers. (It was on there when I got the car, the previous owner was using it to raise the carb up above the rear vacuum port on the intake.) The manifold is the older style Performer dual-plane with the plenum divider flush with the mounting flange for the carb, which means the 4-hole spacer is probably further dividing the TBI up and wreaking more havoc? I looked at some of the other threads where guys were having the same thing, and found one of your replies that had the reference to the Engine Masters episode, and the link to the HolleyInjection.com article. Do you think swapping that spacer for an open plenum version might help?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by landpilot View Post
    Do you think swapping that spacer for an open plenum version might help?
    Yes, you can't use a dual-plane intake manifold with a 4-hole spacer; it must be an open spacer.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....0913#post70913 (Terminator TBI & Dual-Plane Intake Manifolds)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Yes, you can't use a dual-plane intake manifold with a 4-hole spacer; it must be an open spacer.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....0913#post70913 (Terminator TBI & Dual-Plane Intake Manifolds)
    Thanks Danny, that's one of your threads that I read earlier. I figured that stupid spacer might be causing the problem. Do you think the WBO2 sensor location is OK? And do you think I should try a different cam profile to create the base calibration? I'm not currently using a laptop, just the smaller handheld programmer that came with the kit. Thanks much for your help & advice!

    -Chuck

  7. #7
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    Probably best to start with the spacer. I believe the MAP sensor is only reading on half the engine, and that could be the whole issue. I'll have to remember to look over the layout if I do another, but I'm sure Danny will know the answer to it.
    Shawn Dickens
    Builder/Tuner at www.waterthunder.com
    Chevy LS Airboat Motor Specialists

    Technical Adviser for www.holleyinjection.com
    A site owned & managed by Cyber Space Automotive.
    Authorized Holley EFI Dealer

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by landpilot View Post
    I ran through the wizard, selected "Don't Know" for the cam, did the TPS AutoSet, checked the system for fuel leaks, and fired it up.
    ...about the cam; I don't know what is in it, but it has a lopey idle, and it makes less than 15" of vacuum at idle (I think more like 11-13").
    And do you think I should try a different cam profile to create the base calibration?
    Never choose "I don't know" during the base calibration selection process. You could end up with a Global Folder that's too lean or too rich. Your camshaft seems like it's the biggest of the GCF Wizard selection. FYI: a base calibration is what you use to create your Global Folder.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dickens View Post
    I'll have to remember to look over the layout if I do another, but I'm sure Danny will know the answer to it.
    It's all in the LINK I posted above.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Never choose "I don't know" during the base calibration selection process. You could end up with a Global Folder that's too lean or too rich. Your camshaft seems like it's the biggest of the GCF Wizard selection. FYI: a base calibration is what you use to create your Global Folder.

    It's all in the LINK I posted above.
    Thanks. I'll swap out the spacer and change the cam profile, and report back tomorrow. I appreciate all the help! -Chuck

  10. #10
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    So I swapped the spacer to a 1" open plenum, and changed the cam profile to "Street/Strip". The fuel pressure is adjusted to 43 psi. It starts better and seems to run better, but the WBO2 sensor is still reading 35.6 AFR and I can't find a vacuum leak. To be sure, I disconnected & plugged all of the ports. I also rechecked the header & collector bolts, and rechecked the WBO2 to be sure it was seated correctly in the bung. Could the WBO2 sensor be bad out of the box? Are there any other checks I should make?

    EDIT: Forgot to mention, the AFR never changes, it always stays this number, even when revving the engine.
    Last edited by landpilot; 04-16-2016 at 08:32 PM.

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