Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: Injector End Angle Auto-Phasing Table

  1. #11

    Default

    Thanks Scott & Danny. Interesting topic. Seems like my engine likes -180° in the idle area, so I'll leave it there. Not a tremendous difference from the base setting, but a little noticeable. My cam is 218°/223° and I'm getting around 19" in gear, so it's not wild. IDC for me approaches 70% at low boost, so I understand at that point, the table isn't doing much.

    Last question - after messing with the IEA table, should Learn be turned back on, or the Base Fuel Table be smoothed/adjusted in anyway?
    96 MUSTANG/6.0 LQ9/S475 T4/HOLLEY HP EFI/TH400/3.27

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    22,685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VINCE View Post
    Last question - after messing with the IEA table, should Learn be turned back on, or the Base Fuel Table be smoothed/adjusted in anyway?
    Turn Learn back on, and see if the IEA changes made a significant difference in fueling (Learn Table).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,952

    Default V4 Injector End Angle Auto-Phasing Table Explained

    I just want to help explain the new V4 Injector End Angle Auto-Phasing table a little better, for those who are wondering what it is & how it works.

    In previous versions of the software, you would enter Injector End Angle as a single value.
    0° representing Bottom Dead Center of the Intake Stroke, and you could move it +/- 180°.

    In Version 4, there is a new option to use a 16x16 table instead of just one value.
    The table still works just like the single value does, except that you can program it based on RPM & manifold pressures.

    In the Injector Phasing section, there's an auto calculation you can use based on your Cam Valve Events & Injector placement.
    When you enter your camshaft specifications, and press the Recalculate button, it will populate the table with data.

    The data that it puts in there is designed to center your injector firing time over the Intake Centerline of your camshaft specs.
    It does this calculation based on your Base Fuel Table & Injector Size (to calculate Injector Pulse Width).

    This picture shows what it is doing. The values in the table are only meant as a guideline,
    and should be edited by the end user to better suit the needs of your engine.


    Now with a basic understanding of how this function works, you can use this table to your advantage.

    Over years of tuning, I've learned from some of the best in the business, and one thing I've learned, is that it's never a good
    practice to spray the injector after the intake valve has closed. Unfortunately, using the auto calculation will create an end
    of injection well past the intake valve closing event. You pretty much ALWAYS want the end of injection to happen before
    the closing of the intake valve, ensuring you get all of the fuel into cylinder during the intake stroke. While the auto calculation
    will not be ideal, you can use this auto calculation feature to help you find the end of injection that you desire.

    So I made a quick example of how to setup the Injector End Angle 16x16 table to match what you want it to do, instead of
    auto calculating and getting numbers that center it around ICL (Intake Centerline). I'm going to use just one flat number in
    the table to make the math easy for this example. So for now, let's just say we want to have the actual end of injection to
    happen at BDC or 0° Injector End Angle in the Holley EFI software in all of the cells in the table.

    Start by saving your Global Folder file somewhere else, so if you mess it up, you still have a copy to go back to.
    First thing you need to do, is zero out your Base Fuel Table. Don't worry, we will go back to your original values later.
    You can either copy & paste your original table to another program like Excel, or we'll just close & reopen your file
    later without saving any of the changes we make. But for now, don't worry too much about it. Just zero it out.
    The reason we do this, is so that when the auto calculation does its thing, it's calculating based
    on a zero millisecond injector pulse, which means it will point exactly at the theoretical ICL.


    Next we need to setup the values on the Injector Phasing Table.
    I'm using a file I have for an example, so I'll use the cam values for that file.
    The injectors on this vehicle are approximately 5.5 inches from the valve (typical LS1).


    Then click the Calculate button. It will populate the table based on your cam ICL and it will back calculate for the time it
    takes the fuel to get from the injector to the valve. You'll notice, the higher the RPM, the further back the numbers go to
    compensate, since the distance has stayed the same, but the valve events are happening quicker due to engine speed.
    So it has to actually spray it sooner to get it there at the same point in the crank rotation.


    Next, use the Offset to push the values around till the first row of cells reaches 0°.


    This will now fire the injector so that the end of injection physically happens, so that all
    the fuel gets to the cylinder at my desired example of BDC at all RPM and pressure values.

    If you want the end of injection to happen at a different placement. Then simply offset this value by that amount.
    If you want the cells at idle to be at -90°, then simply offset those cells by -90°.
    If you want it to be at -45° around 3000 RPM, then just offset those cells by -45°.
    If you have a wide variety of values you want for your end of injection angle, then you will either need to do them one
    cell at a time, or get smart enough to use Excel to paste values into, and use the math functions to do the math for you.

    Then simply ignore that page for the rest of the time. Do not ever hit Recalculate again, and
    do not change any of the top section values ever again. They can all be ignored at this point.

    Then you can go back to your original Base Fuel Table. You can either just right click and copy the values from the injector table,
    then close the file and reopen your original file without saving, and then paste those values into the injector phasing table.
    Or if you copied your Base Fuel Table to a program like Excel, you can simply copy & paste it back into the file you have open,
    and then save the file.

    Hopefully this helps some of you. if you don't understand this, re-read and just follow the directions.
    I'm not going to try to explain it to everybody who can't figure out what I'm doing with this. This is obviously not for a beginner.
    -Scott
    Don't forget to check out progress on my Race Car:
    Project Blasphemy - 8.07 @ 171
    Low 8 Second Street Car

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    22,685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H
    The higher you go in IDC, the less impact you will see from the end of injection timing.
    Yep, that's why I just installed a set of larger fuel injectors, so I can take advantage of Injector End Angle timing at WOT too.

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H
    Nope, the auto calculator does not shoot for the end of injection.
    The auto calculator shoots for the middle of the injector firing time, to be at the middle of the Intake centerline.
    Exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H
    So I made a quick example of how to setup the Injector End Angle 16x16 table to match what you want it to do, instead of auto calculating and getting numbers that center it around ICL (Intake Centerline).
    Thanks! I was actually working on something similar, but this is so much easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H
    You will notice, the higher the rpm, the further back the numbers go to compensate, since the distance has stayed the same but the valve events are happening quicker due to engine speed. So it has to actually spray it sooner to get it there at the same point in the crank rotation.
    Thanks for a great tutorial, and a visual calculation of the angular time it takes fuel to arrive at the intake valve.

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H
    Next, use the offset to push the values around till the first row of cells reaches 0°. This will now fire the injector so that the end of injection physically happens, so that all the fuel gets to the cylinder at my desired example of BDC at all RPM & pressure values.
    With this method, I should be able to calculate what the IEA WOT value should be (top right corner cell value of 16x16 IEA table).

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H
    If you want the end of injection to happen at a different placement, then simply offset this value by that amount.
    If you want the cells at idle to be at -90°, then simply offset those cells by -90°.
    If you want it to be at -45° around 3000 RPM, then just offset those cells by -45°.
    Yep, the modified idle values from post #7 & #10.

    Quote Originally Posted by S2H
    Then simply ignore that page for the rest of the time. Do not ever hit Recalculate again, and do not change any of the top section values ever again...they can all be ignored at this point.
    Exactly!
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  5. #15

    Default

    Scott, you just might break the internet with that post. LOL. I have read it at least 5x over, and the YellowBullet forum post as well. I get the theory and understand your write-up. Very smart to say the least.

    I do have a couple of questions if you or Danny wouldn't mind answering.

    In the example pictured, it shows Holley's Auto Phasing aiming to split the injection cycle evenly before and after the ICL. That injection cycle is started & finished while the intake valve was open. Safe to assume there is reasoning for getting all the fueling done while the intake valve is on the lifting side and not the closing side?

    I understand or think I do anyways, that the consensus is to get all of the fuel in before the intake valve closes. All of this is focusing on when to stop the fueling cycle. How do we know that at high RPM, longer pulse widths, that the start of the injection is not happening before the intake valve is opening? Anyway to find pulse width of a given injector based on fuel demand?

    From purely a HEAVY gas smell at idle, I notice that several people have reported that an HEFI value from the -150° to -180° has improved their idle or richness smell. With that being the IEA point, it would seem like to me that the injection start point would be happening during the overlap period. Since the pulse width is lower at idle, it seems it would make more sense to have the IEA at around a -100° to -90°, to make sure the start of the injection misses the overlap? Thanks.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    22,685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 69cam View Post
    In the example pictured, it shows Holley's Auto Phasing aiming to split the injection cycle evenly before and after the ICL. That injection cycle is started & finished while the intake valve was open. Safe to assume there is reasoning for getting all the fueling done while the intake valve is on the lifting side and not the closing side?
    MoTeC states it's ideal to inject fuel at an open intake valve (LINK), except at idle and maybe low RPM. At high RPM, it's impossible for most applications to have large enough fuel injectors to spray only during the intake valve's opening (half) time, as opposed to its closing (half) time. That would require an incredibly short injector pulse-width at high RPM, and wouldn't be practical (injector size-wise).

    I understand or think I do anyways, that the consensus is to get all of the fuel in before the intake valve closes. All of this is focusing on when to stop the fueling cycle. How do we know that at high RPM, longer pulse widths, that the start of the injection is not happening before the intake valve is opening?
    This is why, in order to optimize Injector End Angle tuning, larger fuel injectors are required to spray short injector pulse-width durations (especially at higher RPM). This makes it possible to fit the fuel injection event in the programmed time frame.

    Anyway to find pulse width of a given injector based on fuel demand?
    Record & review a datalog of your engine at various loads & RPM. Then look at the "Inj PW" channel for the value.
    http://honda-tech.com/forced-inducti...0/#post8052539 (Calculating IPW - Ben Strader, EFI University)

    From purely a HEAVY gas smell at idle, I notice that several people have reported that an HEFI value from the -150° to -180° has improved their idle or richness smell. With that being the IEA point, it would seem like to me that the injection start point would be happening during the overlap period. Since the pulse width is lower at idle, it seems it would make more sense to have the IEA at around a -100° to -90°, to make sure the start of the injection misses the overlap?
    There's more information about this in post #10. You'll have try it both ways and determine which is best for your application. This post explains the Injector End Angle table that works very well for me: LINK.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Bakersfield, CA
    Posts
    11

    Default

    I have an injector timing table that I made for when I had a Moates Quarter Horse chip on my vehicle. The table is referenced to 0° TDC compression stroke. Can I just subtract 540° from each cell when inputting into the IEA Table? https://i.imgur.com/r8lEFF2.png

  8. #18

    Default

    This is the first time I've messed with this. I believe the car I'm doing now will benefit from it. It's a MAST Black Label 427.
    Adv. cam specs are 250°/264° .666"/.666" 114+4, It's pretty rowdy at idle, idles around 70 kPa @ 1000 RPM. It makes your eyes water at idle, it's bad. At first I had the IEA at 0° and you couldn't stand to be in the shop when it idled. I changed it to -120° and it helped a lot. I've read this thread several times. I zeroed out the Base Fuel Table and put the cam specs into the calculator and offset the values like S2H explained.

    There are several other threads I've been reading on IEA. If I understand it correctly, I'll raise the values at idle and lower RPM range and smooth them out to the higher RPM? I know it's it will take a while to figure out what this particular setup wants. Another question I do have is, the cam is 114+4. Do I need to add that advance into the calculator or not, because it's ground into the cam? Thanks for any help.
    Attachment 2751

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    22,685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    Another question I do have is, the cam is 114+4. Do I need to add that advance into the calculator or not, because it's ground into the cam?
    No, not if it's ground into the camshaft; just enter the camshaft specs. The EFI software should display it correctly afterwards.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  10. #20

    Default

    That's kinda what I was thinking. Thanks for the quick reply.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Holley has been the undisputed leader in fuel systems for over 100 years. Holley carburetors have powered every NASCAR® Sprint® Cup team and nearly every NHRA® Pro–Stock champion for four decades. Now, Holley EFI is dominating the performance world as well as our products for GM's LS engine. Holley's products also include performance fuel pumps, intake manifolds & engine dress–up products for street performance, race and marine applications. As a single solution, or partnered with products from other Holley companies - Hooker Headers, Flowtech Headers, NOS Nitrous, Weiand, Earl's Performance Plumbing, or Diablosport - Holley products can give you the edge you need over the competition.
Join us