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Thread: Another Newby, First Run Issues

  1. #1

    Default Another Newby, First Run Issues

    550–400 on mild Chevy 350. This is a carburetor conversion on an engine that was running great. It just didn't run good off angle with a carburetor on a serious 4x4. MSD distributor, MSD 6A box, no ECU timing control.

    First question is, how long do I have to wait for it to Learn? I have about three hours of test time on it now, and just need to know if I need to be more patient. And then there may actually not be any problems at all.

    My perceived problem:
    So following the directions, I started it, but she would not idle. So I adjusted the idle speed screw so that it would stay running. I then did a TPS reset. So I got it running and then following the directions in the monitor screen, attempted to get the IAC in the 2 to 10. The instructions read to adjust the "throttle shaft adjustment screw". OK, so the only other screw that I see is on the driver side on the throttle arm, and adjusting it has no effect on the IAC value? Only way I can get the IAC value in the 2 to 10 range, is to adjust the idle speed screw out, and then it won't idle. So when it's barely idling, I can rev it up to around 2500 RPMs, and it will run smooth, but when I lift off the throttle it falls down and dies.
    So if I adjust the idle screw so that it idles well, the IAC value will be at zero, but it will idle well. Again, if I run it up to about 2500 RPMs it runs well until I lift off on the throttle, and it returns to idle, it will die or if it's idling well, and I drop it into gear it will die.

    What I have done so far:
    1. Check the timing at least 10 times.
    2. Added more wires and locations for all grounds.
    3. Disconnected the fan control to ensure it was not that ground.
    4. Moved wires to try to ensure there is no dirty power.
    5. Remounted my MAP sensor as it was throwing a code. I think because of the wrong angle and proximity to headers.
    6. Yelled at it a lot.

    Any help would be appreciated. Steve

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hycenter View Post
    First question is, how long do I have to wait for it to Learn? I have about three hours of test time on it now, and just need to know if I need to be more patient.
    Three hours is usually enough, IF the engine has operated in the various areas of the Base Fuel Table.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....el-Learn-Table (Additional Information)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....sed-Loop-Learn (Additional Information)

    So following the directions, I started it, but she would not idle.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....8687#post48687 (Initial Checks & Adjustments)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....neral-IAC-Info (General IAC Information - Read "IAC NOTES")
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  3. #3

    Default

    I read all the associated links and followed the directions below, and these are the results.

    Adjust the idle speed screw on throttle body, to achieve an IAC Position of about 2% at hot idle.
    Remember to perform another TPS AutoSet, whenever you adjust the idle speed screw on the throttle body.
    In the Idle ICF, the "Target Idle Speed (RPM)" must be programmed to the desired RPM speed at hot idle.
    If the idle speed screw is unscrewed too far, the engine is inhaling air from an additional source - vacuum leak.
    Ensure the proper type of Advanced Idle Control is selected in Idle Settings. "Slow" may provide the best idle quality.
    Could not get to 2% without engine dying, but I did change setting to "Slow" and moved to the suggestion below.

    If blocking off the IAC air inlet port results in improved idle/deceleration operation, then problem is IAC related.
    If the ECU is commanding 100% IAC Position, it's because the IAC valve isn't increasing the engine speed.
    You can check the IAC motor's proper travel/range by changing the IAC Park Position.
    Cycle the ignition key off/on after each change, and look down the IAC passage with key-on/engine-off.
    There was no improvement in deceleration, but I did check and the IAC was moving.

    Ensure the spark plug wires (or any other high voltage wiring) aren't too close to the IAC motor/wiring.
    Done

    ★ Initial Baseline Idle Speed Screw Setting ★:
    Sometimes the throttle blades are so far off adjustment, turning the idle speed screw triggers the IAC Hold Position.
    If this happens, the throttle blades will require a baseline setting without the IAC valve altering this adjustment.
    This must be accomplished with the engine at hot idle. Be careful of dangerous fan and belt driven components.
    With the air filter previously removed, block off the IAC air inlet port with your finger or a strong piece of tape.
    While temporarily ignoring the IAC Position, adjust the idle speed screw to the Target Idle Speed RPM (in Idle ICF).
    Turn engine off (remove tape). With the key-on/engine-off, perform a TPS AutoSet. Cycle key off & restart engine.
    Now only a minute adjustment will be required to achieve an IAC Position of about 2%. Perform a final TPS AutoSet.
    Done. So all the above completed, and it did improve no load deceleration, so that 6 out of 10 times it will decelerate and recover itself from a stall condition.
    I would be okay with that, knowing it may Learn more and get better, BUT I still can't drop into gear (turbo 350 auto) without it stalling and it never recovers?

    My starter is not at all happy with me right now. Thanks again for any help.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hycenter View Post
    I would be okay with that, knowing it may Learn more and get better, BUT I still can't drop into gear (turbo 350 auto) without it stalling and it never recovers?
    If the idle speed screw/IAC Position is now correct, I'd look at the Base Fuel Table and/or the Base Timing Table.
    What's the AFR when it stalls? Is it too lean or rich? Is the ignition timing flat (same value) around the idle area?

    EDIT: I just remembered your EFI system is a non-ECU controlled timing application. So it must be fuel related.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  5. #5

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    The AFR is sitting at 12.4 - 12.6, then jumps to 14 just as the the transmission loads the engine and it dies.
    My gut tells me it is to rich at idle and that is why the idle screw prefers to be in a bit,
    also got some carbon build up coming out of the exhaust.
    I'm guessing if I have to get into the fuel or timing tables it may be best for me to find some
    assistance, unless there are certain values I can slowly adjust until I find the sweet spot?
    I will admit I was decent at the good old mechanical distributors with points, but not an expert at this "fancy" MSD I got.
    Not sure if is just the timing advance ramping down to fast or something like that.
    It just ran so good before on the carb I was hoping for a plug & play fuel injection.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hycenter View Post
    I'm guessing if I have to get into the fuel or timing tables it may be best for me to find some
    assistance, unless there are certain values I can slowly adjust until I find the sweet spot?
    Yes, the Base Fuel Table can be slowly or quickly adjusted (see below). If the AFR is too lean, enrich it.
    Determine if it's stalling due to a rich or lean condition. Also, have you tried adding timing advance?
    This is usually caused by a Base Fuel Table that's too lean (especially with a manual transmission).

    If the engine stalls when returning to idle, you may have to have to manually adjust the Base Fuel Table in the idle area.
    Left click & drag to select a group of cells, then use the CTRL & Arrow keys (▲►▼◄) to change the highlighted cell values.
    The ▲ & ▼ arrow keys adjust the Base Fuel Table slowly (one tenth at a time). The ◄ & ► arrow keys adjust it rapidly.
    Or you can left click & drag a group of highlighted cells, and right click "Offset Selected" to adjust the entire cell group.

    Also, ensure the Base Fuel Table is smooth by viewing & blending the Fuel Graph. It's very important to have a smooth Fuel Graph.
    One aspect of viewing the Fuel Graph: It's better to zoom in, by highlighting segments of the Base Fuel Table (left click & drag), and click "Graph".
    This method offers much greater detail. Looking at the entire "Fuel Graph" will almost always look smooth, because it's not as magnified.
    TIP: When the Fuel Graph is smooth, click "Conversion" (VE% Conversion mode) and continue smoothing the general contour of the VE Fuel Graph.

    EFI Software Help Information/Instructions:
    ‒ On the top Toolbar, click "Help" & "Contents". This opens all Help topics.
    ‒ When navigating the software, click "Help ?", drag it to any parameter and click again.
    ..This automatically opens the definitions for that specific parameter.
    ‒ Tuning information can be read by clicking the F1 key, when you're viewing any screen.
    https://www.holley.com/document/tech...10555rev16.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual)

    I will admit I was decent at the good old mechanical distributors with points, but not an expert at this "fancy" MSD I got.
    Not sure if is just the timing advance ramping down to fast or something like that.
    Did you just install this MSD distributor with the Avenger EFI system?
    Or is this the known/proven distributor you had with the carburetor?
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  7. #7

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    I will shift gears here and get the laptop out and download the software. To this point, I have only been using the handheld that comes with it, but I can see the advantage of the laptop.

    The distributor and all the spark control components are all the same from when the carb was on, and were working great it seemed. My comments were only if I needed to get into a "special" timing curve" for the fuel injection; that would be a big learning curve for me, if I have to adjust weights and/or spring weights in the distributor.

    It sure seems like I'm getting closer.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hycenter View Post
    I will shift gears here and get the laptop out and download the software. To this point, I have only been using the handheld that comes with it, but I can see the advantage of the laptop.
    I forget you Avenger EFI owners use that silly handheld controller. When you have a problem, it's time to use the laptop. Once you do, you'll continue using it. Although, that handheld controller is a good little Data Monitor. FYI: When you first connect to the ECU ("USB Link", then click on it to go "Online"), select "Get from ECU".

    The distributor and all the spark control components are all the same from when the carb was on, and were working great it seemed. My comments were only if I needed to get into a "special" timing curve" for the fuel injection; that would be a big learning curve for me, if I have to adjust weights and/or spring weights in the distributor.
    The timing advance curve isn't necessarily different, but ECU controlled timing sure is much easier to tune & setup a Timing Table. The Base Timing Table in the base calibrations are a good starting point, and you can see how it compares to your centrifugal advance curve.

    Software & Firmware Versions:
    Software: click "Help" tab (top toolbar) & "About Holley EFI".
    Firmware: click "Sync With ECU" & "Get ECU Info" (Key-on/USB connected).
    The latest software & firmware can be downloaded here:
    https://www.holley.com/support/resou...Fuel_Injection (Holley EFI Technical Library)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...r10546rev1.pdf (HP & Dominator Quick Start Guide)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...rmwarerev1.pdf (How To Update ECU Firmware)
    Before updating firmware, ensure the current Global Folder is saved somewhere, since it will be erased from the ECU.

    Latest V2 EFI Software & ECU Firmware:
    The latest V2 software can be downloaded here: https://www.holley.com/support/resou...Fuel_Injection
    Read the 199R10632rev5 PDF document for a "V2 Software Update Overview" (in "Holley EFI V2 Instructions").
    Be sure to successfully install the new V2 software, before installing the ECU firmware (read "V2 Update Instructions").
    Ensure the Holley EFI software is not open and the ECU is not powered on/connected when installing the new software.

    EFI Software Help Information/Instructions:
    ‒ On the top Toolbar, click "Help" & "Contents". This opens all Help topics.
    ‒ When navigating the software, click "Help ?", drag it to any parameter and click again.
    ..This automatically opens the definitions for that specific parameter.
    ‒ Tuning information can be read by clicking the F1 key, when you're viewing any screen.
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev16.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual)


    Laptop "Online" Communication With ECU:
    Next to the “Toolbox” button, is a button to indicate the following status of ECU/laptop communications.
    Offline: Is shown when the ECU is not powered or the USB cable is not connected.
    USB Link: Is shown when the ECU is powered and USB connectivity is established.
    However, the user has not chosen to select the “Online” mode,
    and the Laptop & ECU are not communicating with each other.
    Changes made at this time on the laptop, are not being updated in the ECU.
    Online: Is shown when the Laptop and ECU are communicating.
    At this point, changes made with the laptop are real-time updated in the ECU.

    "Get From ECU" & "Send To ECU" - ECU Sync window:
    When you connect a laptop and go "Online" with the ECU, you first want to click "Get From ECU". This updates your laptop with the latest ECU "state of tune". If you click "Send To ECU", you overwrite all the Learning the ECU has performed since the last time that laptop was connected (because you're not sending the latest, up to date values to the ECU). The only time you should click "Send To ECU", is if you're just sending a Global Folder change to the ECU and you haven't driven the vehicle since the last time the laptop was connected.

    Creating, Naming & Saving a Global Folder (Global Config Directory):
    You should name your Global Folder and save it in the EFI software. See below:
    Open the "Help" Contents ("Help" drop down menu), and read "Step-By-Step Beginner's Tuning".
    Or, at least read the "Quick Start Guide": https://www.holley.com/document/tech...9r10546rev.pdf
    IF creating a new Global Folder Name (as opposed to just saving a change in an existing GF), it's much easier to click "File",
    "Save Global Folder As...", delete the Global Folder Name shown and just type in the new name you want without any backslash.

    Emailing Global Folders/Global Files (V4) & Datalogs:
    Your Global Folder and/or Datalogs can be emailed to yourself or other forum members. Click on their username, "View Profile", "About Me" & "Download vCard" for their email address. When emailing a Global Folder/File or Datalog, use your email's 'attachment utility' function and Browse through your computer's "Documents", "Holley", "HEFI" & "Global Folders"/"Global Files" (V4) or "Datalogs". V3 & earlier: Then right click on your Global Folder and Send To "Compressed (Zipped) Folder". Then select the zipped folder and attach it to the email. V4 Global Files & Datalogs (all versions) aren't required to be "zipped"; simply select & attach it to the email. The recipient now has your entire GF or Datalog in one easy step. If it's zipped from email, so download it to your Desktop (or wherever your PC saves it to), and unzip it. Then "Cut & Paste" the GF into "Holley" "HEFI" "Global Folders/Files" directory (located in Documents).

    ECU Date & Time:
    When you go "Online" with the ECU, the option to "Sync ECU Time" (ECU RTC) is at the top of the ECU Sync window. Then cycle the ignition key off/on.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  9. Default

    Danny is a wealth of knowledge, but I would zoom out and check the basics:
    What is your idle RPM?
    What is the stall speed of your torque converter (if auto trans)?
    What is your initial timing set to (no vacuum adv on distributor)?
    What is your vacuum (in Hg) at idle and quality of needle (steady, bouncy, dip and return)?

    I kept Learn mode on for a while, weeks, but set the speed to slow because I was making other adjustments.

    As far as the IAC Parked adjustment, there is only one screw to turn (silver colored one with the spring under it behind the cam lever on the TBI, driver side) and you should only do so when it is at operating temperature - 180-190°. I only adjust it after driving around some to make sure the engine is good and warm and the IAC gets heated to it's full operating temperature.

    I also found that changing to your idle RPM with the handheld sometimes require adjustment of the IAC - it's a system with multiple dependencies. I've found an IAC Parked setting of 2°-4° at a hot idle (in park at operating temp) gives the best idle quality where a setting of 0° idles OK. But causes a minor stumble when putting into gear - with my motor at least. And always perform a TPS AutoSet after adjusting the IAC screw position.

    I like AFR settings of 14.7 to 14.0 @ idle, 13.5-13.0 at cruise and around 12.5 at WOT, but my heads tend to run lean.

    Looking on the laptop is the only way to really see the fuel & spark tables, but in a new setup, I'd look at everything else before targeting the ECU as the culprit.
    Last edited by octanejunkie; 01-19-2015 at 02:04 PM. Reason: added a few other notes and settings

    '59 Chevy 1/2 ton Pickup 3" lift (1" body all around, 2" rear suspension) & dual sway bars
    357ci SBC, Vortec heads, 214°/224° @ 0.050 cam/under .050" lift/112° LSA & roller rockers
    2.5" ram horn manifolds, dual 2.25" pipes, H-pipe behind trans, 14" Flowmaster mufflers
    Power steering, tilt column, power disc brakes up front, A/C (Vintage Air kit pending)
    700R4 transmission, 2200 stall, 3.42 limited-slip rear end & 31.5" tires

  10. #10
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    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by octanejunkie View Post
    As far as the IAC Parked adjustment, there is only one screw to turn (silver colored one with the spring under it behind the cam lever on the TBI, driver side) and you should only do so when it is at operating temperature - 180-190°.
    The IAC Parked Position is not a mechanical adjustment; it's a short duration (software programmable) IAC opening adjustment for cranking & afterstart. The silver spring loaded screw is the idle speed screw.

    EFI Software Help Information/Instructions:
    ‒ On the top Toolbar, click "Help" & "Contents". This opens all Help topics.
    ‒ When navigating the software, click "Help ?", drag it to any parameter and click again.
    ..This automatically opens the definitions for that specific parameter.
    ‒ Tuning information can be read by clicking the F1 key, when you're viewing any screen.
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev16.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

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