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Thread: Few Questions On Idle Tuning & Cranking Time

  1. #1
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    Default Few Questions On Idle Tuning & Cranking Time

    Hey all. I have a few questions on cranking time, Crank To Run RPM and how to change the Fuel Table at idle while the engine is cold and when it's warm.

    This is on a N/A Ford 363, with TFI. I know it takes longer for a sequentially injected car to crank to run. Just how long is this? 1-2 seconds or more like 3-4 seconds?
    I would like to know how on track I am. Right now it takes 4 seconds. This seems excessive to me. Cranking Timing is 15 degrees.

    The Crank To Run RPM, from Holley, is set at 400. The starter will not spin the engine quite this fast. What is the lowest RPM I should set this?
    I was reading on YB that it should not be lower than 400. But you know how misinformation is spread there, lots of BS.

    Right now the engine is incredibly rich at idle. The commanded AFR is 14 on the Holley (which it says it is).
    My AEM WBO2 and my smell-o-meter says different, more like 12:1. It is in Learn mode, pulls 3% out at idle.
    What I want to know is how do I pull fuel out manually? Highlight the Base Fuel Table in the area, then how much fuel to take out at a time?
    I think...well, more like I know it's giving a false lean. With the carb there was no smell at idle when at 14 AFR.

    TPS AutoSet done about 20 times. LOL!
    Static Timing 10 at idle, 30 at 4000 RPM.
    Fuel pressure is set at 43 with engine running (vacuum hose removed and plugged).
    All idle tuning with engine at 195°.

    Please don't tell me to read the Holley Help Contents, I've done this 40 times and I don't understand. Could you tell me like were having a conversation...maybe it will sink in better.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by fast82lx View Post
    ...and how to change the Fuel Table at idle while the engine is cold and when it's warm.
    Never adjust the Base Fuel Table while the engine is cold!
    Adjust the Coolant Temperature Enrichment % Table and/or the A/F Ratio Offset Table.
    However, the coolant based modifiers can only be tuned after the Base Fuel Table is well tuned.

    I know it takes longer for a sequentially injected car to crank to run. Just how long is this? 1-2 seconds or more like 3-4 seconds?
    I would like to know how on track I am. Right now it takes 4 seconds. This seems excessive to me. Cranking Timing is 15 degrees.
    Four seconds of cranking is excessive. Two seconds or less is normal.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....6254#post36254 (Good Starting Advice Thread)

    The Crank To Run RPM, from Holley, is set at 400. The starter will not spin the engine quite this fast. What is the lowest RPM I should set this?
    I was reading on YB that it should not be lower than 400. But you know how misinformation is spread there, lots of BS.
    The Crank To Run RPM is not the actual cranking speed of the starter motor!

    When cranking the engine to start, the ECU only uses the Cranking Parameters (in Ignition Parameters).
    The "Cranking Timing" is usually set to 15°, and the "Crank to Run RPM" is usually set to 400 RPM.
    This means anytime the engine is below 400 RPM, the ECU only commands 15° of ignition timing.
    This also means, when the engine is below 400 RPM, the ECU only injects
    the Cranking Fuel (Startup Enrichment).
    If using a GM HEI or Ford TFI, the Cranking Timing will be the module bypass timing, which is typically around 10 degrees.

    The Base Timing Table has nothing to do with starting the engine. Under 400 RPM (or whatever your "Crank To Run RPM" is),
    the ECU only looks at the Cranking Fuel (lb/hr) Table, the Cranking Timing value, and the IAC Parked Position %.

    Right now the engine is incredibly rich at idle. The commanded AFR is 14 on the Holley (which it says it is).
    My AEM WBO2 and my smell-o-meter says different, more like 12:1. It is in Learn mode, pulls 3% out at idle.
    If your Target A/F Ratio at idle is 14:1, and the Learn Table has subtracted 3%, it seems it's working properly.
    What size is the camshaft (duration @ 0.050" lift)? Are there any exhaust leaks upstream of the WBO2 sensor?
    Is the WBO2 sensor near the end of the pipe? Is there sufficient exhaust piping beyond the WBO2 sensor?
    Large duration (race) camshafts will exhibit a fluctuating AFR/false lean condition at idle & low RPM.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....e-Tuning-Notes (EFI Idle Tuning Notes)

    What I want to know is how do I pull fuel out manually? Highlight the Base Fuel Table in the area, then how much fuel to take out at a time?
    If manually tuning in Closed Loop, with Learn disabled, the Closed Loop Compensation % factor is the amount to adjust.
    The Closed Loop Compensation % value is found in the Data Monitor and in the Datalogger; it's the "CL Comp" channel.

    I think...well, more like I know it's giving a false lean.
    If your WBO2 sensor is reading a false lean AFR, something may be wrong.
    At idle only, or constantly? This must be corrected before tuning continues.

    TPS AutoSet done about 20 times. LOL!
    It doesn't matter how many times you've done it...there's only one "right" way.
    Has the idle speed screw been adjusted to achieve an IAC Position of about 2% at hot idle?
    Perform another TPS AutoSet, whenever you adjust the idle speed screw on the throttle body.
    In the Idle ICF, the "Target Idle Speed (RPM)" must be programmed to the desired RPM speed at hot idle.

    Static Timing 10 at idle, 30 at 4K.
    What size is the camshaft (duration @ 0.050" lift)?

    Please don't tell me to read the Holley Help Contents, I've done this 40 times and I don't understand.
    Could you tell me like were having a conversation...maybe it will sink in better.
    The purpose of this forum is not necessarily to teach you how to tune EFI. It's to help you, which it does very well.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  3. #3
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    Never adjust the Base Fuel Table while the engine is cold!
    Adjust the Coolant Temperature Enrichment % Table and/or the A/F Ratio Offset Table.
    However, the coolant based modifiers can only be tuned after the Base Fuel Table is well tuned.
    I did not adjust anything cold, but I'm glad you told me. Now I know where to look.

    The Crank To Run RPM is not the actual cranking speed of the starter motor!

    When cranking the engine to start, the ECU only uses the Cranking Parameters (in Ignition Parameters).
    The "Cranking Timing" is usually set to 15°, and the "Crank to Run RPM" is usually set to 400 RPM.
    This means anytime the engine is below 400 RPM, the ECU only commands 15° of ignition timing.
    This also means, when the engine is below 400 RPM, the ECU only injects the Cranking Fuel (Startup Enrichment).
    If using a GM HEI or Ford TFI, the Cranking Timing will be the module bypass timing, which is typically around 10 degrees.

    The Base Timing Table has nothing to do with starting the engine. Under 400 RPM (or whatever your "Crank To Run RPM" is),
    the ECU only looks at the Cranking Fuel (lb/hr) Table, the Cranking Timing value, and the IAC Parked Position %.
    Obviously, I know about the started motor RPM, I'm not an idiot.
    Thanks for the clarification on the other items. I'll be honest I was kind of confused on this!

    If your Target A/F Ratio at idle is 14:1, and the Learn Table has subtracted 3%, it seems it's working properly.
    What size is the camshaft (duration @ 0.050" lift)? Are there any exhaust leaks upstream of the WBO2 sensor?
    Is the WBO2 sensor near the end of the pipe? Is there sufficient exhaust piping beyond the WBO2 sensor?
    Large duration (race) camshafts will exhibit a fluctuating AFR/false lean condition at idle & low RPM.
    I'll check it out, but I don't think so. The exhaust has not been touched in 3 years since the motor was installed.
    It's full exhaust tailpipes & all. It's a 236°/244° on a 110° lobe, hydraulic roller.

    If manually tuning in Closed Loop, with Learn disabled, the Closed Loop Compensation % factor is the amount to adjust.
    The Closed Loop Compensation % value is found in the Data Monitor and in the Datalogger; it's the "CL Comp" channel.
    That's good to know, I'll look into this.

    If your WBO2 sensor is reading a false lean AFR, something may be wrong.
    At idle only, or constantly? This must be corrected before tuning continues.
    It's rich all the time everywhere. I think I'm going to let it Learn some more and report back.

    It doesn't matter how many times you've done it...there's only one "right" way.
    Has the idle speed screw been adjusted to achieve an IAC Position of about 2% at hot idle?
    Perform another TPS AutoSet, whenever you adjust the idle speed screw on the throttle body.
    This is something that I know to do. It reads dead nuts 3% hot. 195°F. 0% TPS.

    What size is the camshaft (duration @ 0.050" lift)?
    It's a hydraulic roller, .624/.613 lift, 236°/244° duration, 100° lobe separation angle.

    The purpose of this forum is not necessarily to teach you how to tune EFI. It's to help you, which it does very well.
    Yes, I know. If I didn't want to learn how to do this, I would have paid someone to install & tune the EFI. With that being said, it's just hard taking my knowledge of carbs and translating it over to EFI. Some of the terms and most of the procedures is all brand new to me. Maybe my comment was not clearly stated, and that's my fault. I think the help section needs a "For Dummys" part ;-)

    Thanks Danny, I really appreciate the help. I'm sure you know how it is, like when you first started out on this.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by fast82lx View Post
    Obviously, I know about the started motor RPM, I'm not an idiot.
    Thanks for the clarification on the other items. I'll be honest I was kind of confused on this!
    I know you're not an idiot (that's not what I was implying). But some people do think the
    "Crank To Run RPM" parameter pertains to the actual cranking speed of the starter motor.

    It's rich all the time everywhere. I think I'm going to let it learn some more and report back.
    Remember, the base calibration you start with, must correspond to the MAP sensor you're using:
    For example, you can't use a naturally aspirated base calibration for a forced induction engine.
    This is because the 2,3,5 bar MAP sensor selection only changes the kPa load Y-axis, but not the Base Fuel Table lb/hr
    values (creating an excessively lean map) or the Base Timing Table degree values (excessively advanced timing map).
    You must choose a 2,3,5 bar base calibration or reconfigure your existing Global Folder's Fuel & Timing Tables accordingly.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This! (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read This!)

    With that being said, it's just hard taking my knowledge of carbs and translating it over to EFI. Some of the terms and most of the procedures is all brand new to me.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....9444#post29444 (Read "EFI AE In Carburetion Terms")

    Thanks Danny, I really appreciate the help. I'm sure you know how it is, like when you first started out on this.
    Yes, I understand. Many years ago, I was foolish to think I was going to convert to EFI, and tune it in one weekend! I learned a hard lesson.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  5. #5
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    I've been doing some work on the above, made some progress, but I think it still needs some work. Here is where I'm at, and what issues I am having:

    Stone cold start is better. Fuel prime is 120%. It fires in about 2 seconds, but then burbles & chugs for about 3 seconds then dies.
    IAC Parked is 98%, Cranking Fuel is 18 lbs/hr, After Start Enrichment is 164%, After Start Decay is 18.
    All data is measured at 60 degrees ambient, 60 degrees coolant temp.

    Cold idle is terrible, I have to keep the throttle cracked for it to stay running.
    Coolant Temp Enrichment is 110%, Air Temp Enrichment is 105% all measurements are 60 degrees outside air temp.

    Once it gets some heat in it, it idles well, kinda like it did with the carb.

    Cruise & driveability I'm happy with as is, it's as good as the carb was. So nothing to report on now.

    Hot idle is needs work. Idles rough and shakes the car. I have the Target AFR at 15, Coolant Temp Enrichment 100% (200 degrees coolant temp), Air Temp Enrichment 100% (128 degree air intake temp degrees). Really smells rich out the tailpipe, so I know this AFR being at 15 is wrong. When I had the carb, it idled at 14 was very nice, no stink!

    The Fuel Table is smooth as silk, no peaks & valleys. This was done with the highlight graph feature around the idle area.
    IMHO the base Fuel Table is well tuned very little CL compensation at the moment.

    The engine idles at a 1000 RPMs, and kinda only uses the 4 cells around the 60-63 kPa. It's still not a smooth idle.

    IAC flickers around the 3% at hot idle with the electric fan going.

    Hot start is dead nuts once the ECU sees RPM. It fires in less the 2 seconds, more like 1 second. But after it fires, it burbles & chugs for a few seconds, then clears up and idles fine. Cranking fuel is 4.5 lbs/hr (that's low if you ask me), After Start enrichment is 95%. All @ 200 degrees coolant temp.

    FWIW, I used the MPI36SB245HE, 25 degrees idle timing (all cells around idle are this #).
    TPS AutoSet 0% at idle, fuel pressure is good, Inductive Delay timing done.

    Seems to me the outside conditions today would be best described as perfect weather.
    I mean 60 degrees, very light breeze and not a cloud in the sky, almost 0 humidity at sea level. I think this EFI should be right on the money?!?

    You think I should call Holley and see what's up? Anybody reading this that can cut a "base tune" for a N/A 363 in a Mustang? There might be some money in it for you if I know you are legit. LOL! I literally, and I mean literally, read every thread on this website, I did a search on YB for "Holley EFI" and literally read every thread there.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by fast82lx
    Hot idle is needs work. Idles rough and shakes the car. I have the Target AFR at 15, Coolant Temp Enrichment 100% (200 degrees coolant temp), Air Temp Enrichment 100% (128 degree air intake temp degrees). Really smells rich out the tailpipe, so I know this AFR being at 15 is wrong. When I had the carb, it idled at 14 was very nice, no stink!
    I think you've already found your problem. If it idled well at 14 AFR, why are you telling it to idle at 15? Not many engines like to idle that lean.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 81 TransAm View Post
    I think you've already found your problem. If it idled well at 14 AFR, why are you telling it to idle at 15? Not many engines like to idle that lean.
    When the AFR is at 14 it REALLY smells like raw fuel. When I put the AFR at 15, it gets better. It just idles too rich. Very rich.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by fast82lx View Post
    It fires in about 2 seconds, but then burbles & chugs for about 3 seconds then dies.
    Cold idle is terrible, I have to keep the throttle cracked for it to stay running.
    Remember, the Startup Enrichment & Coolant Temperature Enrichment Tables can't be tuned until the Base Fuel Table is well tuned.
    Is the Learn Table self-tuning when engine is at operating temperature?

    TPS AutoSet 0% at idle, fuel pressure is good, Inductive Delay timing done.
    The fuel pressure may be right, but is the "Actual System Pressure" (in Engine Parameters) programmed correctly?

    When the AFR is at 14 it REALLY smells like raw fuel. When I put the AFR at 15, it gets better. It just idles too rich. Very rich.
    I'm beginning to think something is wrong, because 14:1 AFR should not seem so rich.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Remember, the Startup Enrichment & Coolant Temperature Enrichment Tables can't be tuned until the Base Fuel Table is well tuned.
    Is the Learn Table self-tuning when engine is at operating temperature?
    The fuel pressure may be right, but is the "Actual System Pressure" (in Engine Parameters) programmed correctly?
    I'm beginning to think something is wrong, because 14:1 AFR should not seem so rich.
    It's good that you mention this. The Learn Table at operating temp has added & subtracted fuel in most of the cells. I did a transfer to base and smoothed the table. I did this a couple times. CL compensation is around 1-2%. But, if there is something wrong with the system itself these values may be wrong anyway, right? Seems doubtful though.

    Fuel pressure checked with the engine running, and the hose disconnected and plugged is set at 43 psi. In the actual system parameters it is set to 43 psi. Also, and I know you know this (as do I) when I re-connect to vacuum hose back to the regulator to fuel pressure drops to about 38 psi. I know this is a regular thing, I just wanted to pass it along so you know I actually checked this.

    So if something is up, what is your opinion? I have an extra Holley WBO2 in the toolbox that I can switch out. At the top of the thread I mentioned since the very first fire up my AEM WBO2 (Bosch sensor) always read much richer than the Holley was reading. I'll be honest here, I trust the AEM over the Holley at this point.

    There is no exhaust leaks. With the engine running I put my hand around the header collector and felt nothing. FWIW, the collector is a ball-and-socket connection and both the headers and H-pipe are ceramic coated. If there was a leak it would show/hear/feel. On the head side the gaskets are Percy's Carbon-x style and Percy's locking header bolts. I re-tightened these (they were not loose) a few days ago.

    The intake has always been on the car, and Wilson Manifolds did the porting and fuel injection conversion. Maybe today when I get home I can spray some liquid around the ports and check for a vacuum leak.

    You think that I should start over with a fresh GF? Maybe what I have now is no good?
    I can do screen shots of all the tables, maybe you might find something wrong?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fast82lx View Post
    But, if there is something wrong with the system itself these values may be wrong anyway, right?
    Yes. For example, if your WBO2 sensor fails, the Learn Table will be corrupted with erroneous values and must be "cleared" (or the last known good GF reloaded).

    So if something is up, what is your opinion? I have an extra Holley WBO2 in the toolbox that I can switch out.
    The only thing I would be suspicious of, is a failed WBO2 sensor.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....9522#post19522 (Additional Information)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS T/W 11R 205 heads, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA camshaft, 12:1 C/R, TFS R-Series FTI ported intake, BBK 80mm T/B, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 200A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH pump, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, B&M Hammer shifter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

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