FAST Crank Trigger Wheel

[usmc363]

Great, what distributor and crank trigger kit do I need to buy and with anything extra to make it work with the Holley?

[Danny Cabral]

Great, what distributor and crank trigger kit do I need to buy and with anything extra to make it work with the Holley?

You can use an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger kit, with Holley's 554-118 Hall-Effect replacement (direct-fit) crank sensor.
I'm not aware of any SBF Hall-Effect distributor. This would be a lot easier if you converted to a distributorless ignition. See link below.
http://forums.holley.com/showthread....6274#post56274 (Holley EFI, Crank Trigger, Cam Sync & Coil-Near-Plug)

[achopp]

"No, you can't use that 2-wire VR magnetic sensor inside a distributor."

Danny, why can't you use a VR sensor in a distributor for the Cam sensor?
As long as it is providing 1 pulse per cam revolution and you can phase the rotor.

[Danny Cabral]

Danny, why can't you use a VR sensor in a distributor for the Cam sensor?
As long as it is providing 1 pulse per cam revolution and you can phase the rotor.

The inside of a distributor is electrically noisy (due to the close proximity to the high voltage cap & rotor terminals). It's not a suitable environment for a VR magnetic pickup, because it can affect the signal output. Some model distributors are better than others, and some people have successfully done so. Most had problems with an unreliable signal. In my opinion, it's not even worth trying (especially for a cam sync sensor/sequential application).

Excerpt from Holley EFI manual:
NOTE - It is not advised to use a magnetic pickup distributor to directly feed the magnetic trigger input of the ECU. If the
magnetic pickup distributor is connected to the ECU via the inductive pickup trigger wires, the pickup/rotor/cap phasing
must be corrected. This operation may require a phaseable cap or rotor or possibly machining to the distributor and is
therefore beyond the scope of most users. Even with the phasing corrected, the electrical noise inside the cap
(due to the high voltage cap & rotor terminals) may be strong enough to cause electrical noise interference.
It is advised to use a crank trigger system or a computer-controlled distributor.

[usmc363]

OK, catching on to all of this, finally. So I'm going to ditch the FAST setup, and have found a "retrofit" for the distributor for "Hall-Effect". My next question is this. I plan on converting to the "distributorless" setup (coil packs) AFTER the Florida race. So is it beneficial to order the 60-2 wheel with the 554-117 sensor, or the 4x magnetic wheel with the 554-118 sensor for now, for an easy transition later? What about if I throw a wrench in here, and ask about the Innovators West damper with magnets build into it? Could I use it with the 554-118 sensor AND distributorless setup after the race? Thanks again for all your patience.

[Danny Cabral]

I plan on converting to the "distributorless" setup (coil packs) AFTER the Florida race.

Just so we're clear, you're referring to a coil-per-cylinder ignition system (8 coils), correct?
Not a waste-spark coil pack (4 coils). If so, will you be using Holley's 556-112 CNP smart coils?

So is it beneficial to order the 60-2 wheel with the 554-117 sensor, or the 4x magnetic wheel with the 554-118 sensor for now, for an easy transition later?

A distributorless ignition system can be used with either a 60-2 crank trigger kit or a 4x crank trigger kit.
http://forums.holley.com/showthread....-Dominator-EFI (Additional Information - Read This!)
http://forums.holley.com/showthread....rless-Ignition (Additional Information)
http://forums.holley.com/showthread....nition-Options (Additional Information)

What about if I throw a wrench in here, and ask about the Innovators West damper with magnets build into it?

I'm not familiar with the Innovator's West damper. Is it the same as an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger kit?
If so, it can be used with Holley EFI. Does it have the same adjustability as an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger kit?
http://forums.holley.com/showthread....m-Sensor-Setup (Crank & Cam Sensor Setup)

Could I use it with the 554-118 sensor AND distributorless setup after the race?

Again, if it's the same as an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger kit, yes.

[usmc363]

Danny,
I set the Ignition Reference Angle at 43 degrees BTDC, with the magnet on the wheel pointed to the center of the sensor. (I read that the Ignition Reference Angle needs to be approximately 10 degrees more than the total timing I plan on running (33°). Using the Holley formula, I rolled the motor back to 178°, and set the tab in the distributor to point at the pickup and locked it down. Then rolled the motor to 30° BTDC and set the cap & rotor for #1 terminal & plug. I attempted to check Cranking Timing with a timing light, with the injector harness unplugged, but got nothing. Not sure if this is because it's a "dial" timing light or not, it works fine with the car running. I performed the TPS AutoSet a few times (every time I changed the throttle screw) in order to get the car to idle halfway decent. Also adjusted the individual cylinder correction because it was pulling out 20% and the car was reading extremely lean. It is now at +5% and I have the Cranking Timing parameter set for 16° and 400 RPM.

So, I finally get the car to idle, barely. A/F is jumping from 19.1 to 12.1 and it's popping like the timing is way off. ECU is showing 29 degrees timing and timing light on damper is showing 34. There are no other settings right now to effect timing vs coolant or anything like that. Closed Loop & Learn are enabled to start at 1500 rpm. Crank & cam settings are single pulse and Digital Falling, Inductive Delay is 1.0 usec. Output setup is set to Points Output, 1.5 msec. BTW, the motor wouldn't do anything when opening the throttle at all. Do I just need to adjust the sensor on the trigger until the timing matches? Do I need to not pass go, until I get the idle timing showing up with my timing light & synched? it starts right up, just runs like crap on a hot day.

[Danny Cabral]

Also adjusted the individual cylinder correction because it was pulling out 20% and the car was reading extremely lean.

That's not what this is for. Tune the Base Fuel Table to correct this.
Change all the Individual Cylinder Fuel Corrections back to 0%.

If you need to manually tune the Base Fuel Table in the idle area:
Left click & drag to select a group of cells, then use the CTRL & Arrow keys (▲►▼◄) to change the highlighted cell values.
The ▲ & ▼ arrow keys adjust the Base Fuel Table slowly (one tenth at a time). The ◄ & ► arrow keys adjust it rapidly.
Or you can left click & drag a group of highlighted cells, and right click "Offset Selected" to adjust the entire cell group.

Also, ensure the Base Fuel Table is smooth by viewing & blending the Fuel Graph. It's important to have a smooth Fuel Graph.
One aspect of viewing the Fuel Graph: It's better to zoom in, by highlighting segments of the Base Fuel Table (left click & drag), and click "Graph".
This method offers much greater detail. Looking at the entire "Fuel Graph" will almost always look smooth, because it's not as magnified.
TIP: When the Fuel Graph is smooth, click "Conversion" (VE% Conversion mode) and continue smoothing the general contour of the VE Fuel Graph.

...and I have the Cranking Timing parameter set for 16° and 400 RPM.

Change it back to 15°. One more degree isn't doing anything for you.

ECU is showing 29 degrees timing and timing light on damper is showing 34.
DO I just need to adjust the sensor on the trigger until the timing matches?

Yes, adjust the crank sensor position so the timing is synchronized at idle speed.
Temporarily disable the Idle Spark control (Idle ICF), so the timing isn't fluctuating at idle.

Closed Loop & Learn are enabled to start at 1500 rpm.

What size camshaft is this? (Duration @ .050" lift.)

Inductive Delay is 1.0 usec.

This needs to be adjusted when you get the engine running properly (Link).

Output setup is set to Points Output, 1.5 msec.

When triggering a CD ignition box, the Dwell Time should be 2.0 msec.

BTW, the motor wouldn't do anything when opening the throttle at all.
Do I need to not pass go, until I get the idle timing showing up with my timing light & synched?

Ignition timing synchronization is very important (Link).
You may also need to temporarily block off the IAC valve air inlet port, until the engine is idling well.
http://forums.holley.com/showthread....8687#post48687 (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read This!)


Holley Custom Ignition Parameters, with an MSD Flying Magnet 4x crank trigger kit:
Ignition Type ............. ― "Custom"
Crank Sensor Type ...... ― "1 Pulse/Fire" (← 4x type crank trigger.)
Sensor Type .............. ― "Digital Falling" (← Holley 554-118 Hall-Effect sensor.)
Inductive Delay .......... ― "adjusted per application" (← Synchronization info.)
Ignition Reference Angle ― "50° or 60°" (← Depends on maximum timing.)
Cam Sensor Type ....... ― "Single Pulse" (← If sequentially injected.)
Sensor Type .............. ― "Digital Falling" (← If sequentially injected.)
Output Setup Type ..... ― "Points Output" (← CD ignition box trigger.)
Dwell Time ................ ― "2.0 msec" (← CD ignition box trigger.)

[usmc363]

Danny, again thank you for helping me with this.

I have set the individual cylinder correction back to 0%.
If I can get it to idle, I will adjust the Base Fuel Table and ensure it's smooth on the Graph, to get close to the Target A/F Ratio.
I set the cranking timing parameter back to 15 degrees.

The crank sensor is on the trailing edge of the sensor at the reference angle.
Should I try moving it up (retard) or down (advance)?

The Idle Spark control is disabled.
Duration is 260°/273° @ .050" lift.
I have changed the dwell time for the ignition box to 2 msec.
I'm not running an IAC motor.
The Custom Ignition Parameters already matched with exception to the Dwell Time.
I ran a short System Log with the car running. Does this help?

[Danny Cabral]

The crank sensor is on the trailing edge of the sensor at the reference angle.
Should I try moving it up (retard) or down (advance)?

If the timing light indicates more timing advance than what the ECU is commanding, then you need to retard the crank sensor position (upward).
With a crank trigger, turning the distributor only adjusts rotor phasing.
(Read how to check & adjust rotor phasing toward the end of this post.)
The crank sensor sliding bracket, now does the task that turning the distributor once did.

Testing the MSD CD ignition box. Points Output - white wire & Magnetic Pickup - violet/green triggering: https://www.msdperformance.com/suppo...ng_techniques/ (Troubleshooting Info) I would also ensure the distributor's "rotor phasing" is correct. MSD has a good video on why it's important: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWMlNwGW0tM (MSD Tech - Rotor Phasing Video) http://08961cd535df487cd1c1-bda68e18...m/84211_tb.pdf (MSD Rotor Phasing Document)