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Thread: Dies On Deceleration

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    If the idle drops below 400 RPM (typical "Crank To Run RPM" in Ignition Parameters), it momentarily reverts back to the Cranking Timing (usually 15°), Cranking Fuel (Startup Enrichment), and the IAC Parked Position %. Does the idle ever drop this low?
    It looks like on Datalog1.jpg the RPM do drop below 500 at around 30 seconds. However, the RPM don't drop until 30 seconds into the datalog, yet the timing drops out at 20 seconds. I'm trying to keep this from happening. It shouldn't go below the set idle speed of 900.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    A poor running engine will idle at much higher kPa, creating a rich or lean condition (depending on the base calibration's Base Fuel Table) due to idling high on the Base Fuel Table. In other words, your engine's idle should never drop far enough to reach 95 kPa.
    Right, I agree completely. My car idles smoothly at around 53 kPa. Only when the accelerator is lifted, and the RPM drop below the idle set point, and the car tries to die, does the MAP go up this high. At idle, it's fine at 53 kPa. Here is my idle datalog: Idle.jpg As you can see - RPM is fairly stable at the set rate of 900. Timing seems to jump between 25 to 30. MAP around 53 kPa. AFR is 13-14.

    Should I go to the Base Spark Table then Check Enable Large Table, and make sure that everything in the 1050 RPM column is 25 as well?

    Will adjusting the Base Fuel Table (as listed in This thread - Idle Tuning Notes) help?

    Is there anything limiting the Learn Table to 50%? Under System Parameters/Closed Loop/Learn, the Learned Compensation Limits % is 150 across the board. Does this mean the Learn Table will only go up to 50% addition of the Base Fuel Table? Do I need to merge the Learn Table and the Base Fuel Table to see if it will add more fuel at these cells? (Although most of my Learn Table, around the idle cells, reads around 40%, not 50%)

    Or, with my idle datalog, do you think this is something else I need to be hunting for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    When everything is properly tuned, the difference of 25-30% IAC Hold Position, or 2.5-3 seconds Ramp Decay Time is insignificant (especially won't cause stalling). What does the engine idle at, and what's the Target Idle Speed RPM? What size camshaft is this?
    Cam is 230°/236° @ .050" duration, .600" lift, 112° lobe separation. This is listed in post #1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Adjust the idle speed screw so the IAC Position is closer to 1-2%, rather than 5% (at hot idle).
    Remember to perform another TPS AutoSet, whenever you adjust the idle speed screw on the throttle body.
    Done. The IAC now varies from 1-3%. TPS AutoSet done. This was only a 1/16th turn of the idle screw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    I see some full lean, and some rich spikes in your datalogs. Again, what size camshaft is this? The engine started stalling because the AFR got too rich.
    Also, judging by your Learn Table, you started with a base calibration that was too lean (which is the worst case scenario with a manual transmission).
    Cam is 230°/236° @ .050" duration, .600" lift, 112° lobe separation. This is listed in post #1. I used the Wizard to select my base calibration. It asked if I had a larger or smaller than 409 ci engine. I have a 408 so I selected smaller. I figured that it would have Learned by now. I have about 150 miles on this now, should it not have Learned by now. About 50 of these miles were around town - stop & go and short stretches of 40 mph. 100 highway miles. It has always seemed to be too lean a base calibration, since some of the Learn Table is adding close to 50%. Not sure what else to do to make it not go lean on accelerator-lift. I asked previously if I should manually increase some of the fuel numbers - you said no, just let it Learn. See post #3 above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    That was the Idle Spark control doing its job to stabilize the idle speed, by decreasing the ignition timing. Unless there was an active -7° (±) timing modifier somewhere? Read below. Ensure there aren't any active 'timing modifiers' at this point (e.g. Timing vs Coolant Temperature, Timing vs Manifold Air Temperature, Knock Retard, etc.). Also, ensure you don't have any erroneously programmed "Warning Enabled Timing Offset" parameters in the "Sensor Scaling/Warnings" (System ICF) or in the custom Inputs (Inputs/Outputs ICF). If you're not sure, use the EFI software "Enable Static Timing Set" (in the "Sync With ECU" drop down menu - top Toolbar).
    No active timing modifiers anywhere. Zeros across the board. Only ESC Parameters are 1 degree for both Retard Per Ring & Timing Restore Rate. No Sensor Scaling/Warnings.
    Last edited by Texasdoc; 11-01-2014 at 02:45 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texasdoc View Post
    Should I go to the Base Spark Table then Check Enable Large Table, and make sure that everything in the 1050 RPM column is 25 as well?
    Yes, absolutely. I forgot to mention, you should be using the Large Base Timing Table. Also, ensure the timing is flat (same value) in the idle area.

    Will adjusting the Base Fuel Table (as listed in This thread - Idle Tuning Notes) help?
    I don't know, you tell me.

    Is there anything limiting the Learn Table to 50%? Under System Parameters/Closed Loop/Learn, the Learned Compensation Limits % is 150 across the board.
    The Learn Parameters screen has its own Learned Compensation Limits % Table, separate from the Closed Loop Compensation Limits % (both in the System ICF).

    Do I need to merge the Learn Table and the Base Fuel Table to see if it will add more fuel at these cells?
    The Learn Table values are always applied to the Base Fuel Table; these two tables function as one.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....el-Learn-Table (Additional Information)

    Cam is 230°/236° @ .050" duration, .600" lift, 112° lobe separation. This is listed in post #1.
    OK, I missed that. I have a very similar camshaft in my engine. It didn't require any special or different tuning methods.

    I used the Wizard to select my base calibration. It asked if I had a larger or smaller than 409 ci engine. I have a 408 so I selected smaller. I figured that it would have Learned by now. It has always seemed to be too lean a base calibration, since some of the Learn Table is adding close to 50%.
    You really should have selected the next larger (richer) base calibration (especially with a manual transmission). I suggest saving your current Global Folder somewhere, and start over with the next larger (richer) base calibration.

    I asked previously if I should manually increase some of the fuel numbers - you said no, just let it Learn. See post #3 above.
    Yes, but that's before I realized you started with a base calibration that's too lean. Also, once the Learning happens, you shouldn't try correcting the Base Fuel Table (it skews the Learn Table correction).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    Yes, absolutely. I forgot to mention, you should be using the Large Base Timing Table. Also, ensure the timing is flat (same value) in the idle area.
    OK.

    You really should have selected the next larger (richer) base calibration (especially with a manual transmission). I suggest saving your current Global Folder somewhere, and start over with the next larger (richer) base calibration.
    I just followed the prompts on the handheld. Obviously, Holley's base calibrations are not specific enough. I selected the prompts that I was given. TFI, under 409ci, Cam 226-245°. Those were the only selections.

    So if I start over, where do I get the base calibration file? I looked on Holley's Tech Resources page to see what files come with the software. They list Multi-Port (not for me, I have a Terminator), or TBI with progressive linkages (Terminator does not have a progressive linkage). If I use the TBI calibration, OVER 410ci, cam 226-245, (File TBI85BB245HE) will this cause problems since I don't have a progressive linkage?

    I guess I can try the handheld, with the above selections, then sync from ECU to the laptop to see what it gives me. Then go thru all the settings to make sure they are correct.

    EDIT: Redid the Wizard on the handheld. It created a file: TBI85BB245TF
    This file is not in the base calibrations folder. I will go thru it to see how it runs.
    Last edited by Texasdoc; 11-01-2014 at 04:30 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texasdoc View Post
    They list Multi-Port (not for me, I have a Terminator), or TBI with progressive linkages (Terminator does not have a progressive linkage). If I use the TBI calibration, OVER 410ci, cam 226-245, (File TBI85BB245HE) will this cause problems since I don't have a progressive linkage?
    I doubt that will matter. But just to be sure, use the Terminator's Acceleration Enrichment parameter values (if they're different).

    I guess I can try the handheld, with the above selections, then sync from ECU to the laptop to see what it gives me. Then go thru all the settings to make sure they are correct.
    Is there a next larger (richer) Terminator base calibration? If so, it's much easier to clear your Learn Table, and copy & paste the next larger (richer) base calibration's Fuel Table onto your Global Folder. If not, then clear your Learn Table, and try adding 10% or more fuel to the entire (original) Base Fuel Table. I'm not very familiar with the Terminator base calibrations, so you may have to contact Holley Tech Service (Link).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  5. #15

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    Thanks again for all the help. I'm going to try to add fuel across the board on the base table. Also, a question about editing the Fuel Table for best idle:
    On the other thread you suggest setting up the target idle cell with decreasing fuel from left to right. The stock table has increasing numbers from left to right. So once I identify the target cell for those nine cells (three by three grid), change it so they are decreasing from left to right?


    What I did next:
    Took my latest Global Folder, merged the Learn Table with the Base Table, then found my primary idle cell. (This happens to be 53 kPa at 900 RPM). The number in this cell was 7.81. Add 10% = 8.59. The Base Fuel Table of the closest Terminator Global Folders has 8.85 in this cell. This happens to be Under 410 ci, Mild Street. So I selected this file to start with.

    Then I set the idle to 900. Set the 9-cell matrix around the idle all to 25° timing. Set the 9-cell matrix around the idle to AFR all 13.5 (some were 13.8). And made sure all other options were as they are supposed to be.

    I'm going to try this file.
    Last edited by Texasdoc; 11-01-2014 at 07:46 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texasdoc View Post
    Also, a question about editing the Fuel Table for best idle:
    On the other thread you suggest setting up the target idle cell with decreasing fuel from left to right. The stock table has increasing numbers from left to right. So once I identify the target cell for those nine cells (three by three grid), change it so they are decreasing from left to right?
    Yes, but just in that nine cell block idle area. This is only used on engines with stubborn idle characteristics; it's not always necessary (Link).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  7. #17

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    Sorry its been awhile. Sub-freezing weather, followed by a business trip kept me from working on this.

    Called Holley Tech. They recommended I edit the Closed Loop Compensation Limits Table. Per their instructions, I changed the bottom three negative rows (0-13, 13-26, and 26-29, Negative) to 25% from 100%. This was an attempt to keep it from going lean upon deceleration. Went for a drive yesterday. Still no luck. Still tries to die when I let off the throttle.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texasdoc View Post
    Called Holley Tech. They recommended I edit the Closed Loop Compensation Limits Table.
    I don't see how that would help. If the Target A/F Ratio Table is programmed properly, the Closed Loop Compensation will modify the AFR in accordance to it. If the Target A/F Ratio Table is programmed too lean in the deceleration area, that must be addressed first.

    Went for a drive yesterday. Still no luck. Still tries to die when I let off the throttle.
    If it dies because it's too lean, you'll need to enrich the Base Fuel Table in that area (providing the Target A/F Ratio Table is correct).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    I don't see how that would help. If the Target A/F Ratio Table is programmed properly, the Closed Loop Compensation will modify the AFR in accordance to it. If the Target A/F Ratio Table is programmed too lean in the deceleration area, that must be addressed first.


    If it dies because it's too lean, you'll need to enrich the Base Fuel Table in that area (providing the Target A/F Ratio Table is correct).
    The log shows that it goes to 22:1 upon deceleration. The Target AFR Table is 14:1 in this area.
    So, why would it not Learn and compensate for the lean condition?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texasdoc View Post
    So, why would it not Learn and compensate for the lean condition?
    Read the last paragraph below.

    Learn Issues (Self-Tuning)
    Check the Closed Loop & Learn settings in System Parameters.
    Ensure both are Enabled and "Learn Gain" is 100%.
    Learning won't happen if the idle (RPM) isn't stable.
    Try blocking off the IAC passage to see if it stabilizes the idle. If so, it may be IAC related.
    Ensure the Closed Loop & Learned Compensation Limits haven't reached their percentage limits.
    Initially, if the Closed Loop Advanced Control (1-5) is set too high, it can sometimes inhibit Learning.
    Also, ensure the Learning isn't working because of repeated "RPM Errors", causing repeated ECU "syncing".

    Learning happens at all RPM, provided the Learn Parameters are programmed as such.
    Is the Coolant Temperature Enrichment % or A/F Ratio Offset still active? These must be at 100% & zero to enter Learn mode.
    You may need to reconfigure these tables if you're running the engine colder than what the base calibration specifies.

    Closed Loop & Learning isn't active during periods of acceleration enrichment or deceleration (zero TPS, 400 RPM above target idle).
    The engine needs to be at "steady-state" RPM for the Learning to function, at lower RPM.
    The Closed Loop Status has many momentary periods when it's inactive (Open Loop mode).
    This is normal due to the TPS & MAP based acceleration enrichment (transient fueling).
    Also, any "noise" on the TPS or MAP signal wire (false Rate of Change) will deactivate Closed Loop.
    https://www.holley.com/document/tech...__statuses.pdf (Sensor Diagnostics & Statuses)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

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