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Thread: Fuel Learn Table

  1. #1

    Default Fuel Learn Table

    Finally got the ignition advancing correctly. Now for another question. My Learn Table learns very quickly. About half a minute, maybe less, and the CL Comp is near zero. On the Learn Table, it's showing roughly -38 to -40 in those cells. I take it this is telling me the Fuel Table in these areas are roughly "equally rich", correct? I'd rather not make any changes to the Fuel Table, until after it drive it around a while and run it through the paces. Would there be any advantage to changing the map even though it's already leaned or would a change just make the ECU not have to compensate as much.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Connecticut
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    22,734

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3 window View Post
    I take it this is telling me the Fuel Table in these areas are roughly "equally rich", correct?
    The Learn Table is a modifier of the Base Fuel Table. These two tables actually function together as one, because the Learn Table values are directly applied to the Base Fuel Table. The Learn Table just indicates how much the Base Fuel Table has been altered (modified). The Base Fuel Table values don't change, unless you Transfer Learning To Base (which then allows you to blend the Fuel Graph so it's smooth). It's the Learn Table itself, that contains constantly changing values. When the Learn Table values stop making significant changes, the ECU is finished self-tuning. The purpose of the Learn Table is not to achieve similar values, high/low values (0% or 100%), or any value in particular. It's simply indicating the amount of tuning applied to the Base Fuel Table. Read this thread (LINK), that's what it's all about.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....1842#post61842 (Learn Table - Diagnostic/Troubleshooting Tool)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....5760#post45760 (Scroll down to "Learn Issues, Self-Tuning".)

    I'd rather not make any changes to the Fuel Table, until after it drive it around a while and run it through the paces.
    You don't necessarily ever have to "Transfer Learning To Base", unless you've reached the Learned Compensation Limits % or you want to blend in the entire Fuel Graph (fine-tuning). The ECU continuously updates and uses the Learn Table, regardless if you've "Transferred Learning To Base" or not. Clicking "Transfer Learning to Base" just updates the Base Fuel Table with the current Learn values (the engine doesn't know the difference), so you can blend the Fuel Graph for smooth transitions. Think of the Base Fuel Table and the Learn Table as one table, because the two actually function as one.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....0150#post80150 ("Smooth" Function Information)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17MClF7SYA (Base Fuel Table/Fuel Graph Tuning - Part 1)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRn3A5_ecpo (Base Fuel Table/Fuel Graph Tuning - Part 2)

    EFI Software Help Information/Instructions:
    ‒ On the top Toolbar, click "Help" & "Contents". This opens all Help topics.
    ‒ When navigating the software, click "Help ?", drag it to any parameter and click again.
    ..This automatically opens the definitions for that specific parameter.
    ‒ Tuning information can be read by clicking the F1 key, when you're viewing any screen.
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual & Diagrams)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_199r10544.pdf (Holley EFI Help/Instructions Overview)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...r10546rev1.pdf (Holley EFI Quick Start Guide)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This! (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read This!)
    Open the Holley EFI software "Help" Contents ("Help" drop down menu), and read "Step-By-Step Beginners Tuning".
    Ensure the EFI software is set to run as an "Administrator" (right click for Properties/Advanced). Set it and forget it.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  3. #3

    Default

    Makes good sense. Thanks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    22,734

    Default

    Yep, just ensure the ECU doesn't reach its Closed Loop & Learned Compensation Limits % (in System Parameters).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  5. #5

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    I got ya. So if it has reached its limits (which I doubt it will), THEN I would have to remove fuel in those areas, because the ECU was not able to compensate enough prior to reaching the Compensation Limit %, correct?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    22,734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 3 window View Post
    So if it has reached its limits (which I doubt it will), THEN I would have to remove fuel in those areas, because the ECU was not able to compensate enough prior to reaching the Compensation Limit %, correct?
    Yes, you can do that. However, you never have to actually edit the Base Fuel Table (unless there's a gross base calibration overestimation). You should "Transfer Learning To Base", and then blend the Fuel Graph for smooth transitions (as I described in post #2).

    • If you'd like to manually tune the Base Fuel Table (even while the engine is running), read below:
    Left click & drag to select a group of cells, then use the CTRL & Arrow keys (▲►▼◄) to change the highlighted cell values.
    The ▲ & ▼ arrow keys adjust the Base Fuel Table slowly (one tenth at a time). The ◄ & ► arrow keys adjust it rapidly.
    Or you can left click & drag a group of highlighted cells, and right click "Offset Selected" to adjust the entire cell group.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....7531#post77531 (Closed Loop Datalog Tuning - Posts #2, #4 & #6)

    • Afterwards, always ensure the Base Fuel Table is smooth by viewing the Fuel Graph. It's very important to have a smooth Fuel Graph.
    One aspect of viewing the Fuel Graph: It's better to zoom in, by highlighting segments of the Base Fuel Table (left click & drag), and click "Graph".
    This method offers much greater detail. Looking at the entire "Fuel Graph" will almost always look smooth, because it's not as magnified.
    TIP: When the Fuel Graph is smooth, click "Conversion" (VE% Conversion mode) and continue smoothing the general contour of the VE Fuel Graph.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....e-Tuning-Notes (EFI Idle Tuning Notes)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....2523#post62523 (Holley EFI Tuning Tips & Information)

    • Personally, I never use the "Smooth" button option. Manually blending the Fuel Graph smooth works much better.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....0150#post80150 ("Smooth" Function Information)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17MClF7SYA (Base Fuel Table/Fuel Graph Tuning - Part 1)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRn3A5_ecpo (Base Fuel Table/Fuel Graph Tuning - Part 2)

    • When the engine is tuned & running well, you should decrease the Closed Loop and Learned Compensation Limits % to lock in a good tune.
    I decreased my Learned Compensation Limits to 2% in the idle area (10% elsewhere). My Closed Loop Compensation Limits are 50% or less.
    When the Learn Table values stop making significant changes, the ECU is finished self-tuning.
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....7370#post47370 (Learn Table - Read this thread, especially posts #2, #6 & #11.)

    • And if the Learned Compensation Limits % are significantly decreased (as they should be after the engine is tuned),
    the Closed Loop Compensation can save the engine without skewing the Base Fuel Table.
    So you can fix a temporary fuel system fault without necessarily having to fix the "tune".
    http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh....php?t=1000178 (Related Forum Thread)
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  7. #7

    Default

    When and/or how often do you recommend Transferring Learning to Base? I think my idle is pretty well Learned, seeing that I'm at 0% correction during normal operating temps. Should I wait until the cruise & WOT portions have Learned as well?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    22,734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 3 window View Post
    Should I wait until the cruise & WOT portions have Learned as well?
    Yes, so you only have to blend the Fuel Graph once.

    EFI Software Help Information/Instructions:
    ‒ On the top Toolbar, click "Help" & "Contents". This opens all Help topics.
    ‒ When navigating the software, click "Help ?", drag it to any parameter and click again.
    ..This automatically opens the definitions for that specific parameter.
    ‒ Tuning information can be read by clicking the F1 key, when you're viewing any screen.
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual & Diagrams)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_199r10544.pdf (Holley EFI Help/Instructions Overview)
    http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...r10546rev1.pdf (Holley EFI Quick Start Guide)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ents-Read-This! (Initial Checks & Adjustments - Read Steps #1-#6!)
    Open the Holley EFI software "Help" Contents ("Help" drop down menu), and read "Step-By-Step Beginners Tuning".
    Ensure the EFI software is set to run as an "Administrator" (right click for Properties/Advanced). Set it and forget it.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/2800 RPM converter, M4602G aluminum driveshaft, FRPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 tires.

  9. #9

    Default

    Again, many thanks.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    307

    Default

    Danny, once the system has Learned and you start lowering the amount if Closed Loop Compensation %, should you also lower the Learned Compensation Limits %? I ask because my Closed Loop Compensation Limits were at 100% in boost, and the Learned Compensation Limits were defaulted at 150%. That never made much sense to me.
    93 Notchback, 383ci SBF, Highports, 80mm turbo, custom cam, TH400

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