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Thread: Up & running but with startup issues.

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehkohler View Post
    I did notice when I was looking at the Base Spark Table while idling, the yellow dot was hovering around the 91-98 MAP kPa value.
    That seems high, even for a 244° @ .050" duration camshaft. It should be idling more in the 70 kPa range. Idling that high (kPa), means the engine isn't running as efficiently as it should. Read this: Link.

    It will strain to crank load up a bit and kicks back a lot (I had a fully charged battery and it wasn't too bad, but after the drive on a hot start it acted up pretty bad).
    Maybe 15° of Cranking Timing is too much or you need a stronger starter. Is it getting too hot from exhaust heat?

    During the drive, I could feel a misfire (it also idled funny/misfired).
    This needs to be corrected before any further tuning can be accomplished.

    I reviewed the rotor phasing document and video. So that's one thing I will double check to see where it is...
    This should have been checked before driving the vehicle, especially at WOT.

    The other thing is that warning I mentioned before, about the INDUCTIVE DELAY value being higher than 50. It specifically says I will experience excessive timing advance at high rpms. That's one of the problems I'm having, so I dropped it to 49.0 usec.
    NO!!! That's not what that warning message means. It means if left unsynchronized, the timing can advance beyond what the Timing Table specifies.
    After synchronizing the timing, ignore that warning message and never adjust the Inductive Delay again. Timing changes are done on the Timing Table.

    The only other thing I touched was the idle rpm in the TARGET IDLE RPM graph. I bumped it up a bit till about 120° because it seemed to run rich and load up till it started getting some heat in the engine.
    Yes, most users will ramp their idle RPM up higher, toward the cold end of the scale.

    One more thing. When checking rotor phasing, Should I DISABLE the IDLE SPARK? And what about the ENABLE STATIC TIMING SETTING? Should that be activated?
    When checking rotor phasing, disable the Idle Spark control so you can view the rotor at a steady timing advance value.
    However, do not use the Enable Static Timing Set, because you want to view the rotor move throughout its range of motion.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & MT 245/45R17 tires.

  2. #102

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    OK Dan. So I went out, started the truck and let it get up to temp. I put the Inductive Delay back to my 150 usec. Then I disabled the Idle Spark and checked my rotor phasing. Sure enough, it was off. It was after the #1 terminal, so retarding correct? (Distributor turns counter-clockwise - 351C.) Since it's a Hall-Effect, I set it to where the rotor terminal was facing directly at the #1 post on the cap. Once I set it, I enabled the Idle Spark and checked it again. It stayed put at idle. When revving the engine, it moves slightly ahead of the #1 post so that would be advancing correct? It starts much easier now as well. I looked at the Timing Table and noticed that the yellow dot hovers in between the 77-84 MAP (kPa). So that's my current status. I can't drive it today due to the weather. But when I do, do you think I should take the laptop with me and datalog it?

    To answer the starter question, my headers are fenderwell exit and the starter is at a safe enough distance. And it's a high torque unit as well. But the starting seems ok now, so I suppose that's irrelevant at this point.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehkohler View Post
    I put the Inductive Delay back to my 150 usec.
    If the timing is synchronized at higher RPM, with 150 usec., don't change it again.

    Then I disabled the Idle Spark and checked my rotor phasing. Sure enough, it was off. It was after the #1 terminal, so retarding correct?
    Yes.

    It stayed put at idle. When revving the engine, it moves slightly ahead of the #1 post so that would be advancing correct?
    Yes.

    It starts much easier now as well.
    Good, I was hoping the corrected rotor phasing would also improve starting.

    I looked at the Timing Table and noticed that the yellow dot hovers in between the 77-84 MAP (kPa).
    Good, that's much better.

    So that's my current status. I can't drive it today due to the weather. But when I do, do you think I should take the laptop with me and datalog it?
    Sure, if you need to record something.

    To answer the starter question, my headers are fenderwell exit and the starter is at a safe enough distance. And it's a high torque unit as well. But the starting seems ok now, so I suppose that's irrelevant at this point.
    I agree; the misaligned rotor phasing was causing the hard starting scenario.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & MT 245/45R17 tires.

  4. #104

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    Well that's good to hear then (that these few corrections are satisfactory). Obviously, I'm not gonna know exactly how the corrections changed the behavior of the engine until I drive it. So I will have to wait till my next outing to see what's up. Thanks again Danny.

  5. #105

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    Well I finally got it out there again and drove it some. No good. It still runs like garbage. As soon as I start to accelerate on the aggressive side, it just starts breaking up and falls on its face. If I accelerate somewhat hard but evenly, it surges at higher rpm. When I drive it steady, I feel it missing/breaking up, and this is under light load at a steady cruising rpm.
    The start issue is still there too. It doesn't kick back but it cranks hard and will not fire without excessive cranking.
    You have any thoughts on where to look, or if I can send you my Global Folder and a datalog and you review it???
    I'm really beginning to lose my patience with this thing. I know it wants to run but something just isn't right.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehkohler View Post
    As soon as I start to accelerate on the aggressive side, it just starts breaking up and falls on its face. If I accelerate somewhat hard but evenly, it surges at higher rpm. When I drive it steady, I feel it missing/breaking up, and this is under light load at a steady cruising rpm.
    Is the Learn Table, self-tuning?

    The start issue is still there too. It doesn't kick back but it cranks hard and will not fire without excessive cranking.
    Is the Cranking Timing correct, while cranking? 10°, 15° or whatever your Cranking Timing is?
    The Cranking Fuel (lb/hr) table in Startup Enrichment (Fuel ICF) may need to be increased.
    There's some good starting advice in this forum thread:
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....6254#post36254
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & MT 245/45R17 tires.

  7. #107

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    Well, I can tell you this for now. The cranking issue I think is due to it being a bit on the rich side. When it does act up like I explained, if I crack the throttle a bit it helps and gets it fired up. I read those symptoms and like you said (and I read in the advanced tuning section of the installation manual), the enrichment table needs to be adjusted. Not that this matters because it's when cold, but for comparison purposes: When I initially start the engine, it fires up nice and crisp and idles/runs strong. But then like I said, once it's warmed up and I start driving it all goes downhill.

    As for the Learn Table, I need to look at that. I did not adjust or change anything related to that (not that I know of)...

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehkohler View Post
    The cranking issue I think is due to it being a bit on the rich side. When it does act up like I explained, if I crack the throttle a bit it helps and gets it fired up.
    You can also try increasing the IAC Parked Position (Idle ICF) at that temperature range. It has the same effect as cracking the throttle open.

    ...but for comparison purposes: When I initially start the engine, it fires up nice and crisp and idles/runs strong.
    A cold engine can tolerate richer AFRs.

    But then like I said, once it's warmed up and I start driving it all goes downhill.
    Determine if the system is Learning (self-tuning).
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & MT 245/45R17 tires.

  9. #109

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    OK, I'll check that out (the IAC).
    I'm laying here in physical therapy thinking about the self-tuning (Learning). Is there a specific screen that is going to show me (if it's Learning), or do I just look to see if the dot is changed from blue to green and watch the percentages? Like I said, I don't recall disabling any Learning. Is that something that when I upgraded the software I need to seek out and enable?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehkohler View Post
    Is there a specific screen that is going to show me (if it's Learning), or do I just look to see if the dot is changed from blue to green and watch the percentages?
    Yes, view the Learn Table values (in fuel ICF).

    Like I said, I don't recall disabling any Learning. Is that something that when I upgraded the software I need to seek out and enable?
    Check the Closed Loop & Learn settings in System Parameters.
    Ensure both are Enabled and "Learn Gain" is 100%.
    Also, see what % the Compensation Limits are set to.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385" SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, TFS TW 11R 205 heads, 11.8:1 comp, TFS R-Series intake, Dominator MPFI & DIS, 36-1 crank trigger/1x cam sync, 160A 3G alternator, Optima Red battery, A/C, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, Spal dual 12" fans/3-core Frostbite aluminum radiator, Pypes dual 2.5" exhaust/off-road X-pipe/shorty headers, S&W subframe connectors, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD/3000 RPM converter, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & MT 245/45R17 tires.

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