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  • Sniper With Returnless - Please Read

    If you're running a Sniper unit that does not contain a built-in regulator and you're also running a returnless system and are having issues with erratic AFRs, please read on. Here's my setup:
    Pontiac OHC 6 Sprint, Sniper QuadraJet, Holley Muscle Car In-tank Fuel Module and no return.

    The issues: I first noticed that while the engine was running, my fuel gauge (mounted to the inlet of the throttle body) was not steady. By that I mean that it was nearly vibrating back & forth between ~50-65 PSI at a rate of 60-100 Hz making the needle of the gauge a complete blur. This is a liquid filled gauge by the way. I was also having issues with the engine going lean when I would go from idle in park to a drive gear. I thought the system would Learn what to do in this scenario, but it never did. There was also the issue of the engine going lean at a certain RPM and then rich at another certain RPM. Again, I thought the system would Learn what to do, but the RPM sensitive lean/rich condition never solved itself.

    So I started doing some research and here is what I found: I was getting a harmonic resonance in the fuel system caused by the injectors opening & closing. Think of a pressurized column of liquid with a valve at the end. When you open that valve, the pressure drops in the column and when you close that valve the pressure rises again. Now, put four valves on the end of that column that open and close many times per second. What you end up with is a column of pressurized liquid that is literally vibrating creating a sine wave. If we apply this theory to the fuel system with injectors as the valves, something interesting starts to happen with the sine waves. We all know that sine waves with the same amplitude, but traveling in opposite directions create a standing wave, or a net-zero effect. When this happens in a fuel system, the opposing sine waves effectively drop the fuel pressure at the injectors to zero momentarily causing them to not fire and creating a lean condition. On the opposite side of the coin, when the sine waves line up in the same direction, the resulting pressure to the injectors is increased to the point that they can no longer hold back the flow of fuel creating a rich condition. These effects are nearly impossible to fix by tuning the ECU. You can get close, but never eliminate it totally.

    The solution: Radium Engineering makes a universal inline fuel pulse damper. Its job is to smooth out the pulses generated by the opening and closing of the injectors effectively killing the sine wave in the fuel system. After installing this unit the gauge is now rock-steady! The very first thing I noticed was that the idle was much smoother and the AFR at idle was a lot steadier. After letting the car warm up for a bit I took it on a 20 minute drive and all of the RPM related rich/lean spikes were gone. I also noticed that when the system would go rich or lean it was due to throttle position, not RPM, and it would correct itself very quickly. I'm still running the same fuel map that was in place before installing this unit, but I know that it will Learn and re-map the Base Fuel Table based on what it's seeing now because the fuel pressure is no longer being affected by the sine wave created by the injectors.

    Now, if you're running a Sniper unit with the fuel pressure regulator mounted to the inlet of the throttle body, none of this will apply as the regulator will serve dual-duty as a regulator and a damper. However, if you have one that does not have the regulator at the inlet and you're experiencing erratic AFRs and your gauge is a blur, get one of these. Also, if you're running one without the regulator at the inlet, but you've got a regulator under the hood close to the Sniper unit, that may also help dampen the sine wave. My scenario is slightly unique in the sense that I'm running a returnless system with the regulator in the tank which makes a lot of room for the sine waves to build up and be a problem.

    I'd like to thank everyone that has helped along the way in my journey and I hope that my research will help someone else in the future. Here's a pic of the installation:

    Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Originally posted by 63 bomb ohc
    Now, if you're running a Sniper unit with the fuel pressure regulator mounted to the inlet of the throttle body, none of this will apply as the regulator will serve dual-duty as a regulator and a damper. However, if you have one that does not have the regulator at the inlet and you're experiencing erratic AFRs and your gauge is a blur, get one of these.
    Originally posted by 63 bomb ohc
    Also, if you're running one without the regulator at the inlet, but you've got a regulator under the hood close to the Sniper unit, that may also help dampen the sine wave.
    Of course it does. A vacuum/boost referenced fuel pressure regulator located at the engine works best.
    May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, Eagle forged steel crankshaft & H-beam rods, Wiseco forged pistons, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 11R 205 CNC Comp Ported heads, 12:1 compression ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA H/R camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI Comp Ported intake, BBK 80mm throttle body, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima 34/78 Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal Dual 12" HP 3168 CFM fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes SS dual 2.5" exhaust, SS off-road X-pipe, SS shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio Ford AOD, 10" 3000 RPM C6 billet converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

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    • #3
      Thanks for the post 63 Bomb OHC.
      I run a vacuum/boost referenced 13301 Aeromotive regulator on both of my Sniper installs, and both have return style fuel systems. Both have the regulators within a couple feet of the Sniper units hidden in the engine compartment.

      You bring up an interesting scenario. One of my cars doesn't exhibit this issue you describe, but I do see it on the other car occasionally. It's only when the car is idling, the noise it makes grabs my attention and the analog fuel pressure gauge does flicker very fast. However, it doesn't do this all the time and it has not affected any tuning with the car. My AFRs at idle on both cars have always fluctuated a bit, maybe 1/2 point either way, but I chuck that up to the fact that both cars have aggressive camshafts in them with a lot of overlap, so I'm not going to nail down a solid AFR at idle. They were both the same way with AFR using a carb so I don't view it as a problem.

      I find it interesting I'm experiencing a mild version of what you describe (erratic fuel pressure) on one vehicle. I'll have to read up more on the inline fuel pulse damper and see if there might be a way to incorporate it into my fuel line setup without being noticeable, but if it's as big as I think it is in your picture, this may not be an option for me. As of right now it's not causing me any issues so I may just roll with it, as long as it doesn't kill my gauge.

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      • #4
        @Firebirdjones: The engine that I'm playing with here does have a pretty aggressive camshaft when compared to a normal inline 6 cylinder, but is actually stock for this thing. The Pontiac OHC 6 was a strange bird and builders of the Chevy 6 cylinders look at it with their eyes crossed wondering how it worked in the first place. That being said, the fact that the AFR at idle is now only fluctuating about 1/2 a point is amazing. In response to your noise, I was having the same issue. Come to find out it was due to the harmonic resonance in the fuel system and the noise was the injectors being hammered by the fuel pulse. After installing the pulse damper one of the first things I noticed (aside from the steady gauge) was the lack of noise from the injectors. The unit is not actually as big as it looks in that picture. It measures 1.75" cubed, and the vacuum reference is not needed since the vehicle is not boosted. I'll be putting more miles on tonight and will look at the Learn Table afterward to see if it's going to do what I think it will to the map.

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        • #5
          https://forums.holley.com/showthread...2189#post32189 (Related Forum Thread - Posts #2 & #10-#13)
          May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
          '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, Eagle forged steel crankshaft & H-beam rods, Wiseco forged pistons, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 11R 205 CNC Comp Ported heads, 12:1 compression ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA H/R camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI Comp Ported intake, BBK 80mm throttle body, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima 34/78 Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal Dual 12" HP 3168 CFM fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes SS dual 2.5" exhaust, SS off-road X-pipe, SS shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio Ford AOD, 10" 3000 RPM C6 billet converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

          Comment


          • #6
            @63 bomb ohc: When I said aggressive camshafts I should have been more clear. As an example the cars idle in gear with about 5-6 inches of vacuum, lots of overlap. They are fairly rowdy camshafts. So the AFR has always fluctuated for years, even with the carburators. About a 1/2 point in AFR is all I ever saw so it was never a concern, and switching to the EFI, I thought it might be better in that regard but it's about the same so I don't worry about it. I figure a 1/2 point fluctuation at idle is nothing really.

            What I have noticed with one of mine are the other things you mentioned, the noise and the mechanical gauge that fluctuates. Mine doesn't fluctuate a ton, the needle only flickers maybe 4-5 psi extremely fast. But it only does this at idle, once I touch the throttle and move down the road it stops and is rock steady. I wasn't overly concerned with this either, but the noise it makes while doing it does grab my attention when I'm sitting idle.

            It has not affected any tuning on mine that I'm aware of, the car runs fantastic. But for giggles I may go ahead and invest in the damper just to see what it does. After looking at mine and seeing that they offer various configurations of the damper, I can install it inline right where the main supply line comes into the Sniper and keep it hidden under the air cleaner. I may try that and see what it does. Thanks 63 Bomb

            Just to add to this and it may answer some questions. Why I'm seeing it on one car and not the other, when both cars are plumbed the same way with the exact same fuel system.

            I do have one minor difference on the car that is exhibiting the noise and pulsation. At the Sniper unit I built a hardline setup on that car to mimic the stock appearance of a dual line Holley carb setup. Actually it was already in place from the carburetor. So what I did was modified the back side and ran my -8 supply line into the back of the steel fuel rails.

            The other car doesn't have steel fuel lines at the Sniper, it's all -8 braided lines. From what I've read the softer braided lines act to somewhat insulate this pulsing sensation, and might be why I'm not seeing it on that car. The steel lines I made on the car in question are probably exaggerating the pulse affect and probably why I hear the noise.

            Comment


            • #7
              That harder fuel line very well could be contributing to the fluctuation of the gauge.

              Comment


              • #8
                That's what I figure since the other car doesn't do it. It probably doesn't help that I have my mechanical gauge tapped into that hard line too at the brass fuel block.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I had installed a damper on my Sniper unit as well for this reason - to dampen out the fuel pulses. Seems to be doing what it was intended to do and my pressure gauge has been a lot smoother.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I thought I'd update 63 Bomb's thread for anyone curious since he got me interested in these dampers. I bought the Radium and installed it today. Happy to say the noise the fuel rail was making is now gone and as an added bonus the fuel pressure gauge is now rock steady, and no longer flickers a few psi.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I ordered one yesterday. The in-line -6AN kit. I'm having similar problems as 63 bomb.

                      Before I had the Sniper I had a FiTech 600 system. It was plumbed exactly the same way as the Sniper. But the FiTech had the pressure regulator attached to the TBI unit, so my fuel pressure gauge read spot on. No bouncing and pressure was constant at 58 psi. My Holley Sniper Stealth did not come with a pressure regulator. I'm also returnless having the Holley filter/regulator at the fuel tank, and the return line goes back to the tank at this point. From the supply portion of the soft fuel line it enters my original (replaced) hard fuel line and this terminates at the Sniper.
                      I get the harmonics involved could play havoc with the fuel pressure gauge, but I also had this lean spike at clutch release up to 1500 RPM. After that it straightened and ran normal.

                      63 bomb, thanks for that thread I hope this fuel pulse damper does the trick. Also a shout out to firebirdjones and Gen2Van for posting their success with the Radium Fuel Damper. Wayne, 65-StingRay

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I remember a long time ago I told my boss about the noise & pulse you can feel in the fuel line even through a rubber hose. Years later, I've just accepted it as normal. I'm gonna order one as well. If this does anything to quiet the injectors, it'll be worth every penny.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The other car I installed a Sniper Stealth on hasn't exhibited the same issues...I don't think. I say that because it doesn't make the noises the other car did (it doesn't have hard lines at the unit). But what it does do is flicker the fuel pressure when running.

                          I chucked that up to the Holley Sniper sensor just being overly sensitive and probably some engine vibration was part of the cause, because a mechanical gauge tapped into the line didn't jump around at all and was rock steady, and there has been no running or tuning issues. I ended up using a mechanical gauge to set the base pressure on this one because I didn't trust the Sniper sending unit, as you can see.
                          Here's a short video of the fuel pressure jumping around using the Sniper to monitor it with one of their sensors. Fuel pressure is top right: https://youtu.be/bTaWq0Ykjtk

                          Anyway, since I had success with the radium damper on the other car curing the noise and making my mechanical gauge on that car rock steady. I went ahead and bought another one to install on this car. More or less just as an experiment to see if it has any affect on settling down the Sniper sending unit at all. I'm in the process of installing it on this car as we speak.

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                          • #14
                            Good luck, hope it works. 65-StingRay

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                            • #15
                              Just to follow up, sorry for the late reply, been busy.

                              I installed the damper on the other car and happy to say the fuel pressure on the Sniper electronic sender is nice and steady, within 1 psi of movement. Much better than the short video I posted above where it flickered violently 15-20 psi. Apparently the electric Sniper sensor is much more sensitive than the mechanical gauges I had on the car that showed no movement at all.

                              The only real difference I see now is the Sniper electric sender reads about 2 psi lower than both mechanical gauges I've had on the car. Been that way since the installation, so I'm not concerned. Either way the damper is a winner.

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