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Injector End Angle Worksheet

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  • #46
    I tried all this and it makes it all worse. I have it set at static -95° and it revs clean, and has no tip-in issue. When I went with your tables it shuttered and was not as crisp. Did I do it wrong?

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    • #47
      You didn't do anything wrong. What works for one engine, may not work for another. Every engine is different. There is no magical value that's guaranteed to work. It's called tuning for a reason. And it's part of the reason why sometimes, you've got to go to a tuner that understands this stuff, and get their professional help.
      -Scott
      Don't forget to check out progress on my Race Car:
      Project Blasphemy - 8.07 @ 171
      Low 8 Second Street Car

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      • #48
        Yeah, but I'd like to get rid of the fuel smell if I could. Any other ideas I can try?

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        • #49
          If idle tuning and changing the Injector End Angle at idle (LINK) made no difference, there's not much you can do about the fuel smell. Even after you've corrected the idle AFR, certain camshaft grinds are inherently worse than others, due to their lobe separation angle, valve overlap, cam timing, duration, etc. What you're smelling isn't necessarily an excessively lean or rich condition. It's just the emissions byproduct of your engine's combustion. Idle timing advance, air/fuel ratio, sequential injection & Injector End Angle are contributing factors. Idle tuning will usually only slightly improve the exhaust rich/fuel smell, but not eliminate it (if it's camshaft related). This is where tuning the Injector End Angle toward a negative value can usually be beneficial (and not just at idle), but it's not a magical rich/fuel smell fix for every engine combination.
          May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
          '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, Eagle forged steel crankshaft & H-beam rods, Wiseco forged pistons, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 11R 205 CNC Comp Ported heads, 12:1 compression ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA H/R camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI Comp Ported intake, BBK 80mm throttle body, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima 34/78 Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal Dual 12" HP 3168 CFM fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes SS dual 2.5" exhaust, SS off-road X-pipe, SS shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio Ford AOD, 10" 3000 RPM C6 billet converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

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          • #50
            OK, but how do I know what my overlap period is? I want to try and work on it some more.

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            • #51
              It's helpful to have your camshaft's valve timing events graph (LINK) on hand, to visualize where the IEA events are happening.
              May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
              '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, Eagle forged steel crankshaft & H-beam rods, Wiseco forged pistons, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 11R 205 CNC Comp Ported heads, 12:1 compression ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA H/R camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI Comp Ported intake, BBK 80mm throttle body, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima 34/78 Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal Dual 12" HP 3168 CFM fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes SS dual 2.5" exhaust, SS off-road X-pipe, SS shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio Ford AOD, 10" 3000 RPM C6 billet converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

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              • #52
                Where did you get that graph?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Cam406406
                  Where did you get that graph?
                  I got it from a engine simulation program (Cam Manager in Dyno2003). I think CamQuest (LINK) offers the same thing.
                  May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
                  '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, Eagle forged steel crankshaft & H-beam rods, Wiseco forged pistons, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 11R 205 CNC Comp Ported heads, 12:1 compression ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA H/R camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI Comp Ported intake, BBK 80mm throttle body, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima 34/78 Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal Dual 12" HP 3168 CFM fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes SS dual 2.5" exhaust, SS off-road X-pipe, SS shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio Ford AOD, 10" 3000 RPM C6 billet converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

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                  • #54
                    I'm working on Injector End Angle now in my tune and I've read through this thread and the others linked, but have a question. Does a turbocharger change the strategy at all? I'm guessing the answer to that is no in the idle & cruise areas, but was wondering if it changed anything in the full throttle area? My application is a turbo 6.0L LSx in a '55 Chevy run by the Dominator EFI.

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                    • #55
                      It's just a starting point. Ideal IEA has to be determined on a dyno. And yes, port velocity influences these values some.
                      -Scott
                      Don't forget to check out progress on my Race Car:
                      Project Blasphemy - 8.07 @ 171
                      Low 8 Second Street Car

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Totally stupid question, but does this Injector End Angle stuff only work with timed sequential? Wouldn't Bank-To-Bank or Untimed Sequential change on every start?

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                        • #57
                          Correct, it's only accurate with Sequential Fuel Injection.
                          -Scott
                          Don't forget to check out progress on my Race Car:
                          Project Blasphemy - 8.07 @ 171
                          Low 8 Second Street Car

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by S2H
                            Correct, it's only accurate with Sequential Fuel Injection.
                            Thanks a lot for the response. It made sense to me, but I couldn't find confirmation anywhere. All the more reason to run a cam trigger.

                            So say if you set Injector End Angle at x for the whole chart, on a V8 you could get any of x, x + 90°, x + 180°, x + 270°, x + 360°, x + 450°, x + 540°, or x + 630° depending on what it chose to inject #1 at that particular start. Not a huge deal with a near stock engine with smaller injectors, but something with 120 lb/hr injectors and very short injection times would be more affected by this. Current engine is a 427 SBF with 120 lb/hr injectors and there are several "artifacts" with running Bank-To-Bank, Untimed Sequential is needed. Of course timed would be by far the best.
                            Last edited by allan5oh; 09-20-2017, 08:58 AM.

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                            • #59
                              Has the IEA tool been changed recently in V4 EFI software? I have a friend that recently upgraded to V4 EFI software. He used the IEA tool and got a table that appeared to make sense. When I used the tool last year, it delivered junk results and I had to compensate by using S2H's methods documented earlier in this thread. Just wondering if Holley has incorporated S2H's ideas in the EFI software now?

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                              • #60
                                No, he probably has larger fuel injectors. The larger the fuel injector size, the more sensible the IEA Table "looks".
                                May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
                                '92 Ford Mustang GT: 385"/6.3L SBF, Dart SHP 8.2 block, Eagle forged steel crankshaft & H-beam rods, Wiseco forged pistons, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 11R 205 CNC Comp Ported heads, 12:1 compression ratio, 232°-244° duration/.623" lift/114° LSA H/R camshaft, TFS R-Series FTI Comp Ported intake, BBK 80mm throttle body, Holley Dominator MPFI & DIS, Holley 36-1 crank trigger, MSD 1x cam sync, PA PMGR starter, PA 200A 3G alternator, Optima 34/78 Red battery, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, R134a A/C, Spal Dual 12" HP 3168 CFM fans, Frostbite 3-core aluminum radiator, Pypes SS dual 2.5" exhaust, SS off-road X-pipe, SS shorty headers, Earl's -6AN fuel system plumbing, Walbro 255 LPH in-tank pump & Pro-M -6AN hanger, S&W subframe connectors, BMR upper & lower torque box reinforcements, LenTech Strip Terminator wide-ratio Ford AOD, 10" 3000 RPM C6 billet converter, B&M Hammer shifter, Stifflers transmission crossmember & driveshaft safety loop, FPP aluminum driveshaft, FPP 3.31 gears, Cobra Trac-Lok differential, Moser 31 spline axles, '04 Cobra 4-disc brakes, '93 Cobra booster & M/C, 5-lug Bullitt wheels & 245/45R17 M/T Street Comp tires.

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