Help with tune?

[Danny Cabral]

2.2.0.3 I think.

I asked for your ECU firmware version, not the EFI software version.

• Software & Firmware Versions:
Software: click "Help" tab (top toolbar) & "About Holley EFI".
Firmware: click "Sync With ECU" & "Get ECU Info" (Key-on/USB connected).
The latest software & firmware can be downloaded here:
https://www.holley.com/support/resou...Fuel_Injection (Holley EFI Technical Library)
https://www.holley.com/document/tech...9r10546rev.pdf (HP & Dominator Quick Start Guide)
https://www.holley.com/document/tech...g_firmware.pdf (How To Update ECU Firmware)
Before updating firmware, ensure the current Global Folder is saved somewhere, since it will be erased from the ECU.

• Latest V2 EFI Software & ECU Firmware:
The latest V2 software can be downloaded here: https://www.holley.com/support/resou...Fuel_Injection
Read the 199R10632rev5 PDF document for a "V2 Software Update Overview" (in "Holley EFI V2 Instructions").
Be sure to successfully install the new V2 software, before installing the ECU firmware (read "V2 Update Instructions").
Ensure the Holley EFI software is not open and the ECU is not powered on/connected when installing the new software.

[360demonRT]

Done, nothing seems to have changed. Got my new NTK WBO2 sensor in. Only reads 27.x in clean air? Seems to want to read more realistic however. When I turn the Learn function back on, it sputters, fishes and dies. Only when it tries to get close to my requested AFR of 13.5 idle. So, that's a far cry better than idling at 35.x and it actually reads pretty close, seems like I had a tandem bad sensor and exhaust leak combo. Really getting tired of fooling with this car. This car has a big cam in it, how much vacuum should it be pulling at idle? Going to try to chase exhaust leaks tomorrow.

[Danny Cabral]

Got my new NTK WBO2 sensor in.

If you had the Bosch WBO2 sensor before, did you change the "Wideband O2 Sensor" in Engine Parameters (before connecting the new sensor)?

Only reads 27.x in clean air?

Yes, the NTK WBO2 sensor only displays up to about 29:1 AFR. The Bosch WBO2 sensor displays up to 35:1 AFR.
After turning the engine off, exhaust gases need to dissipate before seeing these full lean AFRs (key-on/engine-off).

When I turn the Learn function back on, it sputters, fishes and dies.

A failed WBO2 sensor will corrupt the Learn Table. Clear the Learn Table (if the percentages are erroneous from their nominal values), or load the last "known to be good" Global Folder.

This car has a big cam in it, how much vacuum should it be pulling at idle?

Large race camshafts will cause the WBO2 sensor(s) to read a false lean condition at idle & low RPM, due to their significant amount of overlap. This also happens if there isn't a sufficient length of exhaust piping beyond the WBO2 sensor(s), due to the WBO2 sensor being near an open exhaust pipe (ambient air contamination). To rectify this, enter the Closed Loop Parameters (in System Parameters), and set the "Enable RPM to Enter Closed Loop" high enough to ignore this condition. You'll then need to manually tune the idle area in Open Loop mode.

Going to try to chase exhaust leaks tomorrow.

Yes, there can't be any exhaust leaks upstream of the WBO2 sensor.

Which ECU firmware version are you running? This is the fourth time I've asked you this.

[360demonRT]

Hopefully this is the info about the firmware you needed. If this isn't the problem I'll pass the issue off on a warped manifold flange, LOL. I held a straight edge against it, and either end of the manifold is pulled back to make a U shape, probably 1/16th inch. Looks like that much would draw up easily.

Sorry for not getting that info, I'd convinced myself it was an exhaust leak. I don't think it's a problem with huge overlap, it only has a couple degrees of overlap. When you rev it a little, it still fluctuates and AFRs sway, and it pops & cracks & bucks & stumbles and all kinds of crap.

Thanks a lot for the help. Sorry I'm difficult, just don't understand the EFI tuning thing super well. This is really my first build of any kind, past bolting on a set of headers. LOL!

[Danny Cabral]

Hopefully this is the info about the firmware you needed.

Yes, that's the latest ECU firmware.
If you had the Bosch WBO2 sensor before, did you change the "Wideband O2 Sensor" in Engine Parameters (before connecting the new sensor)?
A failed WBO2 sensor will corrupt the Learn Table. Clear the Learn Table (if the percentages are erroneous from their nominal values), or load the last "known to be good" Global Folder.

[360demonRT]

Yes sir, I did change the WBO2 sensor style in the system, before I hooked it in. Paid too much for that thing.

I did clear the Learn Table. I didn't have a good file. When I first started the car, it didn't have a transmission behind it, so it didn't get any load based fueling, and it only probably had 20 minuites of Learn time at that. Basically, what I've been starting/idling/revving the car on is the 480 HP LS2 Global Folder, reworked for my sensors, etc.

One possible issue: It's OK to change the values on the X axis (vertical axis) for the kPa readings, as long as you have the proper MAP sensor selected, correct? I'm using the 3 bar GM MAP sensor, but I can still scale my axis such that the readings go from 0-104 kPa, right?

[Danny Cabral]

It's OK to change the values on the X axis (vertical axis) for the kPa readings, as long as you have the proper MAP sensor selected, correct?

Yes, but the X axis is the RPM scale (horizontal). The Y axis is the MAP/kPa scale (vertical).

I'm using the 3 bar GM MAP sensor, but I can still scale my axis such that the readings go from 0-104 kPa, right?

If you have a 3 bar MAP sensor, then that's what must be selected (Sensors ICF), even if the engine produces less boost.
Conversely, the Fuel & Timing Table axes (kPa & RPM) should be reconfigured to the engine's actual capabilities. So, yes.

[360demonRT]

Thanks for all the help, it's much appreciated. Now I'm back to chasing exhaust leaks. Never thought 3' of pipe could have enough of a leak to cause this much issue, must not take a very big hole. If I find this to be the problem, I'll post up. Might help someone out with a similar problem.

[Danny Cabral]

This is a long shot, but you should also look at your Fuel Graph to ensure it's smooth.
One aspect of viewing the Fuel Graph: It's better to zoom in, by highlighting segments of the Base Fuel Table, and click "Graph".
This method offers much greater detail. Looking at the entire "Fuel Graph" will almost always look smooth, because it's not as magnified.

The Timing Table must be flat at idle, meaning the same value used in the entire idle area (especially if using Idle Spark Control).
https://forums.holley.com/showthread...e-Tuning-Notes (EFI Idle Tuning Notes)

[360demonRT]

It's smooth. Lowest in the low kPa/low RPM corner, and rising to the opposite corner. The timing is set to 26° across all kPa until 1200 RPM. Almost positive it's an exhaust leak now. I honestly don't know how...I copper head gasket sprayed the manifold gaskets, Heli-Coiled (had a stripped hole) and torqued the piss out of the bolts all the ways I could think of, inside out, outside in and even straight across. Checking AFR each time. I stick welded over my pretty TIG welds, and even welded my V-band to the other one with about three passes because I can get it all out in one piece. I guess scrap this exhaust setup and start again. Man, it was so pretty too for my amateur skills. How big of an exhaust leak would it take to cause this much pain? I took three very long data logs and they all showed the same thing, quick rev brought down the AFR, slow pedal up a few hundred rpm or so wouldn't hardly budge it. Cam only has a couple degrees of overlap. I guess this shows that everything (sensor wise) is working good, but I just have an exhaust leak?

[Danny Cabral]

How big of an exhaust leak would it take to cause this much pain?

Your problem may not be caused by an exhaust leak. Have you tried tuning it in Open Loop mode? You may need someone to help you.
If you choose to manually tune the Base Fuel Table, read the "Base Fuel Table Tuning Quick Guide" in the EFI software "Help" Contents.

[360demonRT]

I've not had closed loop enabled since I started having this issue. The AFR with the temporary exhaust setup I had, stayed where it should and the self Learn worked excellent for the 15-20 minutes I used it, before taking it apart to put the permanent setup on. It revved clean and was only making small percentage changes from the base tune I had in. It even read the AFR correctly at my idle rpm (<1000 RPM, I'm assuming it was correct because it wasn't blowing smoke or struggling trying to die). A datalog of the temporary setup is below to show I'm not making this stuff up lol. I'm going to go from scratch at my exhaust again after I order some new V-bands and exhaust pipe. If I can't get the AFR to read right and in turn the Learn function to operate, I'll sell it and get someone with HPT to tune it for me on a stock computer. If anything it should read better as the temporary setup was a piece of parts house 90° pipe about 1' long TOTAL with the WBO2 about 6" from the end of the setup.

Are there any issues that could cause this thing to read stupid like it is OTHER than an exhaust leak at this point? You alluded that there may be something other than that, but we've covered about anything I could imagine. I've manually added fuel until it stumbles and dies (reads pretty damn lean still) and manually leaned it out until it doesn't act happy either. I played with it the other night until it would rev quick and pretty happily, at least by sound. I've added large amounts of fuel across the whole table and slowly fed it throttle past 1000 rpm and you can tell it's way too damn rich, but the sensor is only starting to try to get close to stoichiometric.

One other thing I did between the temporary setup and the permanent one, was install an alternator (charges 14.4/5 volts at idle), old school true one-wire. Could this be messing with it somehow? Again, would make sense to me that it would make the computer operate better with a full charge, LOL. That's really the only thing I haven't tried... May take the belt off to see if the charging system is somehow making it squirrely. The charge wire isn't near the WBO2 wiring, and only passes within a couple inches of the IAC & TPS, which work fine.

If it hadn't worked fine before I worked on the exhaust I could more easily believe it to be something else. But as much as I've done to this exhaust I'm having a hard time believing it's the exhaust too. I'm lost as is pretty evident. I plan on reading the base Fuel Table Tuning Quick Guide just because it may teach me something.
EDIT: I have the computer mounted on the backside of my glove box (hard plastic), and unhooked all cables/wires from the ECU before I did any welding.

[Danny Cabral]

Could this be messing with it somehow?

Yes, it's possible.

May take the belt off to see if the charging system is somehow making it squirrely.

I agree with this logic. Do whatever you can to simulate that initial engine run. Try removing the alternator belt.


The "302 Ford Turbo", "555 BBC Turbo" and "350-383ci Supercharged 14psi" are all 2 bar base calibrations.
The "Turbo LSx 364ci 850HP 20PSI DBW 4L80E WM" and "383-434ci Turbocharged 30 psi Gas" are 3 bar base calibrations.
Have you tried the "383-434ci Turbocharged 30 psi Gas" 3 bar MAP sensor base calibration?

[360demonRT]

I'm wigging out now. I took off the alternator belt and BAM...freaking beautiful! Started it cold with no belt, registered a little lean, but not nearly as bad as with the belt. kPa was a little lower (pulling more vacuum). Then after it got warm, I turned on the Learn function. Instant 10 kPa reduction, idle like a queen, smooth as a babies butt! "Awesome" I said to myself, let it idle up to 200° and shut her down.

Put the belt back on, turned the Learn off (didn't Learn very long), fire in the hole. Same crap as normal. Idled much worse, IAC went up to 2X%, you can see in the datalog comparison below what's up. I CHANGED NOTHING EXCEPT ADDING THE BELT! When the first set of lines goes nuts, it's when Learn is activated with THE BELT ON, when it smoothly transitions later in the graph that's when Learn is activated with BELT OFF. What does this mean? Charge wire isn't touching any wiring, goes behind the water pump and dips beside the oil pan and hooks to the starter. The battery is rear mounted. How can a charging system, charging properly (looks like it to me), make the Holley go nuts?

[Cam406406]

How is the Holley power ran? Charge wire must me too close to something?