Additional WBO2 Sensors

[centrifuge]

Looking to have one WBO2 sensor per cylinder, so in addition to the two WBO2 controllers integrated into the Dominator, I will need to run six more.

My initial thought was to purchase six individual controllers, and feed a 0-5V signal to six of the generic 0-5V Inputs, etc. However, I have some concerns with that method for a couple reasons. Wondering if anybody can offer feedback on experience & methods adding additional WBO2 sensors.

Thanks for any help.

[S2H]

Use your two main wideband O2s in the exhaust as normal, not in single primaries.

Purchase eight other widebands for the individual pipes.

AEM makes a four channel controller that works well, and you can just buy two of them to use eight individual wideband O2s.

Then you just connect them to the 5V Inputs. They are only used for logging.

[centrifuge]

Thanks for the reply S2H.

Is this what you are running? Is it working well without any issues? Do you see a noticeable offset issues that you had to account for?

As far as your configuration with eight WBO2s, that go in each primary, and the two that feed the Holley (usually in collector),
I agree with that strategy normally. But in this case, the collector is not an option. It's very short and 4.5" in diameter, and never really gets a good reading.

I was just planning to feed them into a 5V Input for datalogging, as you said.

[S2H]

Unless you plan on running Open Loop up to a certain RPM (usually around 2500-3000), you need to make it work somehow.

In the individual Primaries, you will get horrible Closed Loop fueling as the WBO2 will see individual pulses.

With an WBO2 in the collector, you will have to run Open Loop up to an RPM where the exhaust flow is enough to keep it from getting contaminated by fresh air.

I do not have that setup on my own car, but I have put it on other vehicles, and it works good for datalogging.
You will also need eight HBX-1 (Innovate Performance) heat sink bung extenders for the WBO2 sensors.

You will be able to see the individual pulses in the datalog, until higher RPMs.

[centrifuge]

Thanks for feedback. I understand the reasoning about Open Loop at low rpm but...

Unfortunately, It did not get good reading in the collector from idle to 7,000 RPM (which is redline). And having them in the primary
(2.25" diameter), worked great for 1300 NA HP on the engine dyno, Closed Loop without any drastic correction taking place.

It would always read lean. I have somewhat concluded, between the big short collector and being a slip on collector,
it just will not work (much testing on this situation- needed almost 10 inches up the pipe to get a reading).

You will also need eight HBX-1 (Innovate Performance) heat sink bung extenders for the WBO2 sensors.
You will be able to see the individual pulses in the datalog, until higher RPMs.

Tell me a little more about this. Normally, I have only used these in turbo applications, pre-turbo.

[stan williams]

I'm very interested in adding eight widebands as well. I built a 638" Nitrous engine for a customer that has some pretty poor cylinder to cylinder AFR spreads. On the dyno, we were able to get them all between 12.6 & 13.2 from 6000 RPM to 7500. However, when we loaded it down to 4500 like it is on the transbrake, the AFR spread was 11.0 to 15.0. Performance loading up on the transbrake is not as good as it was on carbs. How consistent of data can I expect from the AEM controllers mentioned above? Can you run it off the CAN network or do you just have to use the eight analog outputs? I hear that there's a Holley version 4 software, that will address Load/RPM on individual cylinder correction. That should be very helpful in cleaning up the 4500 RPM AFR spreads I have now. Any more details on what the fields will look like and when that software will be available?

[centrifuge]

Stan, sounds like we have similar engines we are working on for customers. This is a 704" and will be on nitrous soon. That is one of my issues with the Holley is that the fuel trim is a scalar, rather than a full table. I'm hoping they will catch up with the competition in this department.

I did find major differences in the testing we did in EGT & AFR especially at low-mid RPM range. I did find a couple details in this article interesting:
http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories...roject-blownz/

I also have the question about analog Inputs vs CAN. I have a couple concerns about running that many through analog inputs, but not sure if my concerns are valid.

[S2H]

You have to use the AEM devices as analog inputs.
Running 8 of them is not a problem.

The CAN Bus is proprietary Holley language.
Many people see "CAN" and assume any device can be used with it.
In reality, "CAN" just means "Controller Area Network".
Effectively, it's just the telephone lines used to communicate between devices.
But its no different than saying somebody is speaking German on one end, and Japanese on the other.
Both devices have to speak the same language to be compatible thru CAN Bus.

As far as consistent data with the AEM, I've had pretty good results with it on a buddy's car.
Seems to be fairly consistent from run to run.
Again, placement is key. The closer you are to the exhaust port, the more accurate they will be.
But you run into an issue with the exhaust overheating the WBO2 sensor pump and failing the sensors.
So you have to add the Innovate Motorsports HBX-1 heat sink bung extender, to get it out of direct flame and keep the sensor alive longer.

No matter what you do, the sensors will die sooner, than if it's further away from the exhaust port...but at least the HBX-1 will help some.

And it does not matter if you are N/A, N2O, F/I, any wideband O2 you put up closer to the exhaust port will need the HBX-1.

Also, slip on collectors almost never seal good enough for wideband O2 readings.
And 10" sounds about right for a start. We usually suggest 12"-18" minimum length of pipe past the WBO2 sensor.

[Danny Cabral]

So you have to add the Innovate Motorsports HBX-1 heat sink bung extender, to get it out of direct flame and keep the sensor alive longer.

I now have dual NTK WBO2 sensors, and I've been successfully using Innovate Motorsports HBX-1 Heat-Sink Bung Extenders for many years. They work great with Bosch or NTK WBO2 sensors!

[centrifuge]

Thanks for the feedback. I will have to look into running these HBX-1 units. Is this a stainless piece?

[stan williams]

$700 for eight of them. Dang. That's more than the sensors. This 638" only runs 3 seconds at a time wide open. Might be hard to talk my customer into this.

[Danny Cabral]

Thanks for the feedback. I will have to look into running these HBX-1 units. Is this a stainless piece?

Yes, they're stainless steel. I've used them with Bosch & NTK wideband O2 sensors.

This 638" only runs 3 seconds at a time wide open. Might be hard to talk my customer into this.

Not so, on my vehicle...but I understand your point.

[S2H]

$700 for eight of them. Dang. That's more than the sensors. This 638" only runs 3 seconds at a time wide open. Might be hard to talk my customer into this.

It's not such a hard decision, if it makes a difference of the motor lasting the entire season vs a few passes at a time.
Or if it makes the difference of winning races and being more consistent, because fueling can be evened out to be more consistent.

I have a buddy that kept popping a head gasket...it was always cylinder 8.
Eight widebands showed him that the problem was in the fueling in that cylinder; considerably leaner than the rest on his setup.
Ended up being a fuel rail issue. He would not have found it without the eight individual widebands.

[Danny Cabral]

$700 for eight of them. Dang. That's more than the sensors.

Autoplicity.com sells them for $65.96 (LINK). That's $527.68 for eight Innovate Motorsports HBX-1 Heat-Sink Bung Extenders.


(Autoplicity.com is a legitimate business. I've purchased from them a few times, with good results.
They're also a Holley EFI dealer...but of course, you will not receive any tech support from them.)

[stan williams]

Danny, thanks for the link. I'll pass it on to my customer. Now just waiting for the Holley V4 software to be released, so I can tweak the low RPM areas we are having problems with.