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Thread: Magnetic & Hall-Effect Crank/Cam Sensor Setup

  1. #1
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    Default Magnetic & Hall-Effect Crank/Cam Sensor Setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Holley "Help" Contents
    CRANK/CAM SENSOR INSTALLATION AND SETUP

    The following information is used to assist with the proper installation and setup of various crank and cam sensors and hardware. Most of these settings are setup as a “Custom” ignition type in the software.

    NOTE: You should have a balancer this is fully degreed or a timing tape installed on the balancer to perform the following settings.

    1.0 CRANK SENSOR SETUP

    1.1 Ignition Reference Setup – “one pulse per fire” trigger, Magnetic Pickup

    The following shows how to set up the crank signal for a “one pulse per fire” RPM input using either a Magnetic pickup crank trigger or distributor.
    A “one pulse per fire” trigger means there is one sensor pulse for every cylinder firing (on a V8 this would be a 4 pulse crank trigger or a 8 pulse trigger in the distributor).


    NOTE: In the software, the Sensor Type should be set up as “Magnetic”.

    1.
    Note the Ignition Reference Angle set in the software. This is typically set to a value that is 10 more than the highest timing you will run.
    Do NOT set it higher than 75. 60 is a common value. 60 is used for an example here.
    2. Turn the engine over so that it is at the Ignition Reference Angle. For this example it would be 60 degrees BTDC on cylinder #1.
    The timing pointer should be indicating 60 degrees BTDC on the crank.
    3. Align/turn the crank trigger or distributor so that the sensor is perfectly inline with the trigger.


    For a Magnetic pickup crank trigger, this means the pickup and a magnet should be inline.
    For a Magnetic pickup distributor, this means having one of the reluctor teeth line up with the Magnetic pickup.

    4. Tighten every thing up.
    5.
    If you are not using a cam sync (if you are, continue to section 2.1), everything should be set close enough to start the engine.
    It is recommended that you disconnect the injectors and crank the engine over.
    Look at the timing with a timing light. It should be firing at the cranking timing value shown on the data monitor.
    If it is off a few degrees, you can move the pickup slightly, or change the Ignition Reference setting to sync things up.
    If you change the Ignition Reference value, note that you must cycle the ignition power for it to take affect.


    1.2 Ignition Reference Setup – “one pulse per fire” trigger, Hall-Effect Pickup

    The following shows how to set up the crank signal for a “one pulse per fire” RPM input using either a Hall-Effect pickup crank trigger or distributor.
    A “one pulse per fire” trigger means there is one sensor pulse for every cylinder firing (on a V8 this would be a 4 pulse crank trigger or a 8 pulse trigger in the distributor).


    NOTE: In the software, the Sensor Type should be set up as “Digital Rising” or “Digital Falling”.

    1. Note the Ignition Reference Angle set in the software. This is typically set to a value that is 10 more than the highest timing you will run.
    Do NOT set it higher than 75. 60 is a common value. 60 is used for an example here.

    2. Turn the engine over so that it is at the Ignition Reference Angle. For this example it would be 60 degrees BTDC on cylinder #1.
    The timing pointer should be indicating 60 degrees BTDC at the crank.
    3. Align/turn the crank trigger or distributor so that the sensor is aligned properly. In the software, the signal should be set up as “Digital Rising” or “Digital Falling”. A Hall-Effect sensor typically uses a “shutter window/wheel” that has “openings” and areas of material that are in close proximity to the sensor that triggers the sensor output. Or it uses a toothed wheel that has “teeth” and “gaps”.


    When the sensor sees the edge of an “opening” or a “gap”, this triggers the sensor in a “Falling” manner.
    When the sensor sees the first edge of the material or tooth, this trigger the sensor in a “Rising” manner.


    To set the Hall-Effect pickup properly:


    If set as “Digital Rising”, the pickup should be located such that the sensor is aligned where the shutter window/wheel or tooth edge first hits the center of the Hall-Effect sensor.
    If set as “Digital Falling”, the pickup should be located such that the sensor is aligned where the “opening” in the window/wheel is or the tooth gap starts (also meaning where the sensor leaves the edge of the shutter window/wheel or tooth edge).

    4. Tighten Everything up.
    5. If you are not using a cam sync (if you are, continue to section 2.1), everything should be set close enough to start the engine.
    It is recommended that you disconnect the injectors and crank the engine over.
    Look at the timing with a timing light. It should be firing at the cranking timing value shown on the data monitor.
    If it is off a few degrees, you can move the pickup slightly, or change the Ignition Reference setting to sync things up.
    If you change the Ignition Reference value, note that you must cycle the ignition power for it to take affect.


    1.3 60-2 Wheel

    The following covers the installation of a 60-2 crank trigger wheel Holley offers.
    Holley offers kits for Small and Big Block Chevy engines to mount the sensor and wheel.
    Four different diameter 60-2 wheels are available that can be custom mounted on any engine.


    The “60-2” alludes to the fact that crank trigger wheel has 58 teeth with “2 missing”. This is also known as a “58x” wheel.
    The “missing” teeth are used as an identification, so the ECU can recognize the exact angular position of the crankshaft.
    Having 58 teeth allows the ECU to much more precisely calculate engine speed compared to a trigger wheel with less teeth.


    To set up a 60-2 wheel:

    1. Rotate the engine to #1 TDC.

    2. The software has a parameter called “TDC Tooth Number”. This is typically set to “10”. The example below will use 10 as this value.
    Do not set it below a value of 9 for best timing accuracy.
    Values higher are acceptable, but you need to make sure the cam sensor is installed appropriately if one is used (see section 2.2).


    3. With the engine at TDC on #1 cylinder, the sensor will be positioned such that it is lined up with the “TDC Tooth Number” (for this example 10).
    This is the 10th tooth “after the missing teeth” on the crank trigger wheel in the direction that the engine rotates.
    Install the crank trigger wheel and align the bolt holes on it such that the sensor will be near this position.


    Most all engines rotate clockwise, except for Honda engines which rotate counterclockwise. If you are confused about which tooth this means, put the trigger wheel on the engine and rotate just the trigger wheel (leave the engine at TDC on #1) in the direction the engine rotates. Rotate it until the missing teeth/gap line up to where the sensor will be mounted, then continue turning it and count 10 teeth. Take a marker and mark this tooth. It will be the tooth you need to align with the sensor.

    2.0 CAM SYNC POSITIONING

    A cam sync pulse is required if you are running sequential fuel injection. This tells the ECU which cylinder is cylinder #1 (or the first cylinder in the firing order as entered in the software). The following describes setting this up for a “one pulse per fire” crank input as well as a “60-2” crank input.

    2.1 Cam Sync setup when using a “one pulse per fire” crank input

    For a "one pulse per fire crank” signal (e.g. a 4 pulse crank trigger on a V8), the cam sync signal must occur in a specific range to properly identify which cylinder is cylinder #1. If this is not done properly, individual cylinder trims will not be performed on the correct cylinder, or worse, if using individual coils, the wrong cylinder will be fired, potentially damaging the started, flexplate, or worse.

    The best way to determine the proper range is by using the following basic formula to determine the crank angle range that the cam identity can occur.
    An example is give afterwards along with a table that has certain combinations already calculated.


    Cam sync location (degrees BTDC #1) = "Ignition Reference Angle" + “A” + (“A” / 2)
    “Ignition Reference Angle” = Taken from Crank Sensor Setup in software
    “A” = Angle Between Crank Pulses (crank degrees between triggers on the crank sensor)

    “A” for a 8 cylinder = 90
    “A” for a 6 cylinder = 120
    “A” for a 4 cylinder = 180

    Using the formula above, plug in the “Ignition Reference Angle” you are using and the proper “A” value depending on the number of engine cylinders.
    The location calculated is the “ideal” location and can vary +/- 30 degrees or possibly more.
    If you are out of this range contact Holley Tech Service for options.


    Example - 8 cylinder with a Ignition Reference Angle of 60
    Cam Sync Location = 60 + 90 + 90/2 = 195 degrees BTDC #1

    Cam Sync Location = 60 + 90 + 45 = 195 degrees BTDC #1
    195 would be the centrally "perfect" location for this specific example.
    However, this location can vary by +/- 30 degrees from this nominal target value with no issue.


    Number of Cylinders Ignition Reference Angle Cam Trigger Location Range (BTDC #1)
    4 60 330 +/-30 degrees
    6 60 240 +/-30 degrees
    8 60 195 +/-30 degrees

    NOTE: If it is mechanically not possible to install the cam trigger in the proper location, the engine firing order can be changed to compensate.
    For details on this, contact Holley Tech Service at 1-866-GOHOLLEY.

    2.2 Cam Sync setup when using a 60-2 crank input

    When using a 60-2 crank sensor wheel, this cam sync signal trigger MUST occur:

    Before cylinder #1 is at TDC on the COMPRESSION STROKE, make sure that it is not occurring on the exhaust stroke.

    It also MUST occur at least 8 teeth (approximately 50 degrees) before the “missing teeth” are read by the crank position sensor.

    If the crank sensor is set up such that the 10th tooth after the missing teeth is at TDC,
    position the cam sensor such that it is between 110 -250 degrees before TDC on cylinder #1.
    This will create a proper position.


    This cam sync input can be configured as a Magnetic or Hall-Effect (digital rising or digital falling) input in the software.
    Make sure that if you are using a Hall-Effect sensor, you have this set up properly as a rising or falling signal.


    3.0 Crank & Cam Sensor Diagnostics

    One of the most frustrating problems that can occur with EFI is crank and cam sensor signal issues. In order for an EFI system to operate properly, it must get proper crank and cam sensor signals. If there is a crank or cam signal issue, such as missing or extra pulses, the Holley EFI systems will show this on a datalog. If you feel that you are experiencing a crank or cam sensor problem, take an internal datalog at 100 samples per second of the problem. Add the “Diag #1” parameter to one of the datalog views and review it in the problem area. Look at the “ones” and “tens” positions of the “Diag #1” parameter. Once the engine is running, these positions should NEVER increment. If they do, it signals a crank or cam sensor signal problem. If you need help diagnosing this, it is recommended that you contact Holley Technical Support at 1-866-GOHOLLEY.
    This information above, is also found in the Holley EFI software; click on "Help", "Contents" & "Crank & Cam Sensor Setup".
    https://www.holley.com/document/tech...10555rev15.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....=7592#post7592 (Sensor Diagnostics & Datalogs)
    https://www.holley.com/document/tech...__statuses.pdf (Sensor Diagnostics & Statuses)
    https://www.holley.com/document/crank-camsensorreq.pdf (Crank & Cam Sensor Requirements)
    http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...re/CamSync.jpg (Pictorial diagram of a 4x crank trigger and 1x cam sync.)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....ons-Holley-EFI (FAST Dual Sync Distributor Wiring & Setup Instructions)
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....nition-Harness (Cadillac Northstar Ignition/Coil Pack Wiring)

    Quote Originally Posted by Holley New ECU Documentation
    New Magnetic Crank & Cam Sensor Parameters:
    There are new crank & cam sensor parameters for magnetic type pickups in software version 2.2.0.3. These only have an effect on ECUs marked with "Rev J" on the back. These parameters have no effect on older ECUs, which can be identified by not having a Revision level on their labels. If you have an older ECU, enter a value other than 0.00 volts, so the warning message stops appearing.

    The new variables are found in the System Parameters ICF: "Ignition Parameters", "Ignition Type", "Custom", "Configure".
    If the Crank Sensor - "Sensor Type" = Magnetic, or the Cam Sensor - "Sensor Type" = Magnetic, the following new variables appear for either:

    "Minimum Signal Voltage" - This parameter defines what the signal strength must be for the ECU to recognize it as valid for the crank, cam and IPU speed inputs. Anything below this threshold is considered background noise. This value can be set between 0 and 5V and the higher the setting, the more noise is rejected and the stronger the signal has to be before the ECU considers it valid. Practically speaking, the sensor's signal at the lowest speed (during cranking for instance) defines how high you can set this. Obviously, if you only have voltage level of 0.5V during cranking, you do not want to set it to 1V because the actual signal will be ignored. It is advised to start with a value of .35 Volts. If there is a problem picking up a signal during cranking, lower this value .05 Volts at a time until you get reliable triggering during cranking (valid engine speed), then multiply this value by 0.75. If there is a problem with noise causing false pulses, you can try increasing this value.

    This parameter can also be found in the "Input/Output ICF", as well when the Input Type is set to "IPU Speed". Follow the information above to select this value.

    "Filtering" - This is a variable that controls the new hardware based filtering used to help throw out short duration noise on the crank and cam inputs. A value of 1 represents the minimum filtering and 16 is the maximum filtering. Practically speaking, the sensors maximum frequency in combination with its strength determines how high you can set this. A 60-2 or 36-1 pattern generates a high frequency signal and you would almost never need anything greater than 8, and anything over 4 should be used with caution. For single pulse per fire crank signals and cam signals, the frequency is lower and you an get away with more filtering. If you use a filtering value that is too high, valid pulses can be filtered out at high engine speeds causing sync errors. You do not have to be under load to test for this. You might notice as you increase the crank filtering levels, you will have to increase the Inductive Delay values to keep timing from retarding at high speeds, since by its nature the filtering introduces a slight delay.
    This is the difference between "Digital Falling" and "Digital Rising". Digital Falling is much preferred:
    I've data logged the difference on the same Hall-Effect sensor, and Digital Rising had RPM errors.



    Just some reference notes pertaining to crank trigger adjustments:
    The crank sensor sliding bracket, now does the task that turning the distributor once did.
    With a crank trigger, turning the distributor only adjusts rotor phasing.
    MSD has a good video on why rotor phasing is important:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWMlNwGW0tM (MSD Tech - Rotor Phasing Video)
    http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedF...or_phasing.pdf (MSD Rotor Phasing Document)



    Excerpt from Holley manual:
    NOTE - It is not advised to use a magnetic pickup distributor to directly feed the magnetic trigger input of the ECU. If the
    magnetic pickup distributor is connected to the ECU via the inductive pickup trigger wires, the pickup/rotor/cap phasing
    must be corrected. This operation may require a phaseable cap or rotor or possibly machining to the distributor and is
    therefore beyond the scope of most users. Even with the phasing corrected, the electrical noise inside the cap
    (due to the high voltage cap & rotor terminals) may be strong enough to cause electrical noise interference.
    It is advised to use a crank trigger system or a computer-controlled distributor.
    May God's Grace Bless You

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, custom traction bars, 4" lift, 35" mud tires

  2. #2

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    89 Mustang 331, Vortec YSi, TFS-R EFI intake, Romac balancer. Just ordered Holley EFI HP to replace Anderson PMS. Plan to use Holley DIS coils.

    1st: Can I use the MSD #8640 four magnet wheel for SBF & wire into the Holley ECU?
    Just seems like it would be less hassle to mount since it is made for a small block ford.
    http://www.msdignition.com/Products/...igger_Kit.aspx
    Assuming that I can, I just set the timing pointer to 60 BTDC #1 on compression stroke and align pick up with a magnet? Which of the 4 magnets or does it not matter?

    Next set the engine at 195 (+/- 30) BTDC #1 Compression Stroke and this is where I want the cam-sync signal to occur. I am a little fuzzy here on how to make this happen. Remove 7 of the 8 reluctor teeth on distributor...................AND do exactly what from here in layman's terms please...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhinchley View Post
    Can I use the MSD #8640 four magnet wheel for SBF & wire into the Holley ECU?
    Just seems like it would be less hassle to mount since it is made for a small block Ford.
    http://www.msdignition.com/Products/...igger_Kit.aspx
    Yes, but if you choose to use the MSD crank trigger, then you'll need to install a cam sync sensor for Holley's DIS (sequentially injected or not).
    So decide which components are really "less hassle" to install.

    Note:
    Holley's waste-spark DIS system gets its signal from the two missing teeth on the 60-2 trigger wheel. It's "waste-spark" because the two missing teeth send the TDC signal every time #1 cylinder is up (near TDC of compression stroke and near TDC of exhaust stroke). It doesn't know when the #1 cylinder is ONLY on the compression stroke, hence the need for a cam sync sensor for sequential use. If you don't need or want sequential injection, then you just need an oil pump drive. In other words, the two missing teeth (60-2 trigger wheel) are only for DIS ignition and the cam sync sensor is only for sequential fuel injection. If you're not using the 60-2 crank trigger with Holley's DIS, then a cam sync sensor must be used (sequentially injected or not).

    Assuming that I can, I just set the timing pointer to 60 BTDC #1 on compression stroke and align pick up with a magnet?
    Which of the 4 magnets or does it not matter?
    Align whichever magnet is closest to the magnetic pickup sensor (using the wheel's bolt pattern & slotted sensor mounting), with #1 cylinder at 60 BTDC on the compression stroke.

    Next set the engine at 195 (+/- 30) BTDC #1 Compression Stroke and this is where I want the cam sync signal to occur.
    I am a little fuzzy here on how to make this happen.
    From TDC on #1 cylinder, turn engine 195 in opposite direction of normal rotation.

    Remove 7 of the 8 reluctor teeth on distributor...AND do exactly what from here in layman's terms please.
    If using Holley's DIS or CNP/COP, it doesn't matter which 7 of the 8 reluctor teeth are cut off, because the cap & rotor are eliminated.
    With engine rotated to the cam sync position above, install converted distributor with cam sync sensor aligned with the single reluctor tooth.
    May God's Grace Bless You

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, custom traction bars, 4" lift, 35" mud tires

  4. #4

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    Planning to use Holley DIS
    If using Holley's DIS or CNP/COP, it doesn't matter which 7 of the 8 reluctor teeth are cut off, because the cap & rotor are eliminated.
    With engine rotated to the cam sync position above, install converted distributor with cam sync sensor aligned with the single reluctor tooth.
    That is where I am confused. What am I using for a cam sync sensor in the distributor to convert it?
    Last edited by mhinchley; 09-03-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhinchley View Post
    That is where I am confused. What am I using for a cam sync sensor in the distributor to convert it?
    What type of distributor do you have? The converted cam sync signal just needs to be a "single pulse per rotation".
    With Holley's DIS or CNP/COP (which eliminates the cap & rotor), you can use a magnetic pickup or a Hall-Effect sensor.
    May God's Grace Bless You

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, custom traction bars, 4" lift, 35" mud tires

  6. #6

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    Basic Ford Motorsport.

    Hmm, I wonder, could you use AEM's EPM 24 & 1 with a CNP setup?
    That would make it really simple. # 30-3254: ALL Ford 289 and 302 Sm Blocks
    http://www.aemelectronics.com/engine...module-epm-24/
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVM-30-3254/
    Last edited by mhinchley; 09-03-2012 at 05:52 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhinchley View Post
    Basic Ford Motorsport.
    The good news is, converting a distributor to a cam sync is easier with DIS/CNP ignition.
    NOTE: It's highly recommended to use Hall-Effect type crank & cam sensors.
    (Link for Holley's Hall-Effect replacement crank sensor for MSD crank trigger kit.)

    If using a crank trigger kit, this link informs how to modify a
    distributor's magnetic pickup reluctor for cam sync operation:
    http://www.candbmotorsports.com/camsync.html (Modification Instructions)
    http://www.msdignition.com/Products/...let_Steel.aspx (Extra reluctor to modify.)
    You can use a Hall-Effect "geartooth" type sensor with the distributor's reluctor; no magnet installation.

    However, for DIS & CNP/COP, the cam sync conversion is much easier than what's outlined in that link:
    There's no need to modify the reluctor with a setscrew (so it can rotate independently on the shaft).
    This adjustability isn't necessary because the cap & rotor are eliminated, so there's no #1 rotor/terminal phasing.
    Simply cut off any 7 of the 8 reluctor teeth, and fabricate a cover to take the place of the discarded cap adapter & rotor.

    Hmm, I wonder, could you use AEM's EPM 24 & 1 with a CNP setup?
    That would make it really simple. # 30-3254: ALL Ford 289 and 302 Sm Blocks
    http://www.aemelectronics.com/engine...module-epm-24/
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVM-30-3254/
    The single pulse (1x) cam sync signal will work fine for sequential use.

    UPDATE
    : The AEM EPM 24 pulse crank signal is not compatible with Holley EFI:
    http://forums.holley.com/showthread....3780#post13780
    May God's Grace Bless You

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, custom traction bars, 4" lift, 35" mud tires

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    The one pulse cam sync signal should work fine for sequential use.
    Now this really interests me, because no wheel on the crank. What would I use for coils here?
    Sorry for all the questions, but I am a DIS/CNP dummy. Never went this route or this much hp.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhinchley View Post
    Now this really interests me, because no wheel on the crank. What would I use for coils here?
    You can still use Holley's DIS system or something like GM CNP/COP - 8 "smart" ignition coils.
    (2-wire coils require Holley 554-112, 2-wire coil driver module: 1 required per 4 cylinders).
    I'd continue with your original plan of using an MSD crank trigger and the AEM EPM for the cam sync signal only.
    Although with DIS & CNP/COP, your magnetic pickup distributor can be converted to a cam sync.
    May God's Grace Bless You

    '78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, cold air induction, dual 3" exhaust/Magnaflow mufflers, 100HP progressive dry direct-port NOS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator wide-ratio AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim joint steering, Cage long radius arms, custom traction bars, 4" lift, 35" mud tires

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Cabral View Post
    You can still use Holley's DIS system or something like GM CNP/COP - 8 "smart" ignition coils.
    (2-wire coils require Holley 554-112, 2-wire coil driver module: 1 required per 4 cylinders).
    I'd continue with your original plan of using an MSD crank trigger and the AEM EPM for the cam sync signal only.
    OK, maybe I will just go that route with the Holley DIS. Not the cheapest but should be simple and dependable I think.
    Last edited by mhinchley; 09-03-2012 at 07:33 PM.

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